 |
| MaxDefense earlier believes that the Incheon-class frigate will be the basis of the frigate program, but it is worth checking what will be the final output of this bidding process. |
MaxDefense summarizes the important details of the said 1st-stage bid specifications, with a few edits as shown below (additional commentaries in Italics):
==================
Technical Specifications:
Budget: Php 18 billion for 2 brand-new frigates.
Capabilities:
- Anti-Air Warfare (AAW), Anti-Surface Warfare (ASuW), Anti-Submarine Warfare (ASW), and Electronic Warfare (EW);
- Extended Maritime Patrol with embarked helicopter;
- Operation on up to Sea State 6
Dimesions: per function of design (depend on bidder's proposed design)
Displacement: per function of design (depend on bidder's proposed design)
Range: 4,500 nautical miles @ 15 knots;
Endurance: 30 days in tropical condition;
Speed: maximum continuous of 25 knots;
Boats Carried: minimum of 2 Rigid Hull Inflatable Boats;
Operating Environment:
- Operation at Sea State 6,
- Non-degradation of warfare mission at Sea State 5;
- Helicopter operation at Sea State 4;
- RHIB operations at Sea State 3
Complement: per function of design (depend on bidder's proposed design), but will have a non-organic crew of 8 officers, 16 enlisted personnel (embarked Task Force/air crew/1 SEAL team.)
Propulsion: minimum of 2 engines with 2 propellers with reduction gear box;
Power Supply: minimum of 3 diesel generators;
Replenishment at Sea Capable.
Navigation Equipment:
- minimum 2 navigation radars (X-band and S-band), at least 1 in solid state design, capable of Automatic Radar Plotting Aid (ARPA), Automatic Identification System (AIS) and Automatic Tracking Aid (ATA);
- GPS;
- depth sounding set;
- vessel tracking system compatible to Philippine Navy's system
Communications:
- Standard VHF AM/FM and UHF radios;
- Satelite Communications (SATCOM) system;
- Identification Friend or Foe (IFF) system;
- "Fitted for but not with" Tactical Data Link (NATO standard), still to be determined which type, supplied by PN;
- Local Area Network (LAN);
-Connectivity to the PN's Littoral Observation Stations and Maritime Research Information Center.
Sensors, minimum requirement:
- Combat Management System (CMS), readily upgradable;
- Fire Control System integrated to CMS, can track and engage surface, air and missile targets simultaneously;
- Fire Control Radar and/or Electro-Optical targeting system;
- Electronic Support Measures (ESM) with Radio Detection and Finding (RDF);
- 2D air search radar for air surveillance and target acquisition, minimum range of 80nmi, can detect sea-skimming missiles with maximum altitude of 10ft., integrated to ESM and CMS;
- 2D surface search radar, can detect anti-ship missile threats minimum range of 40nmi, integrated to ESM and CMS;
- Passive and Active Sonar system;
- Decoy launcher minimum 6 tubes per side or centrally rotating launcher
Weapons Systems, minimum requirement:
- 76mm gun at forward section with target tracking radar and/or electro-optical target acquisition and fire control computer;
- 1 x stabilized secondary gun;
- 4 x 50-caliber machine guns;
- primary and secondary guns shall be integrated to combat management system;
- 4 x surface-to-surface missile launchers, minimum 50km range, active homing seeker and ECCM capability;
- surface-to-air missile launching system, minimum quadruple launcher, minimum 6km range, IR or semi-active homing seeker, with ECCM and/or IR CCM capability;
- anti-submarine torpedoes, minimum range 2km, minimum depth 500m, with acoustic countermeasures capability, 2 x triple launchers (one on each side);
Flight Capability: Hangar and deck facilities for at least 1 helicopter up to 10-tons.
Helicopter Hangar Dimensions: 14.3m L x 9.5m W x 4.5m H, capable of accepting 10-ton helicopter design;
Ammunition:
- minimum 10 rounds each for surface-to-air and surface-to-surface missiles;
- minimum 6 torpedo rounds and a dummy torpedo;
- minimum 652 rounds assorted 76mm ammunition;
- fragmentation and high explosive rounds for secondary gun;
- minimum 54 rounds for assorted chaffs and decoys;
- minimum of 2 ammunition storage spaces
==================
Additional Information:
Aside from the specifications released by the DND, PTV-4 was able to interview the commanding officer of the Philippine Navy's Patrol Force, Commodore Jose Renan Suarez, wherein he pointed out a few of the basic information of the frigate project. He emphasized the availability of a main gun firing 120 rounds per minute, and that the ship would be built to accept numerous upgrades in the future to be relevant and competitive with new threats.
Points for Discussion based on the Information:
There are 2 parameters set on this bidding that must be considered before making conclusions:
First, the project will go through a two-stage bidding, with the initial bid only intended to provide basis of capability of competing bidders to comply with the initial specifications;
Secondly, all specified requirements in this specification by the DND are "minimum requirements", and bidders may propose a better system according to their decision.
Similar to what the DND and PN did for the Strategic Sealift Vessel, the manufacturers are given the free-will to submit a hull design that would fit to the requirements, without being specific on the dimensions and displacement. The range and endurance is acceptable for frigates, although most corvettes and OPVs also have the same capabilities with this regard. The speed appears to be slow as compared to typical frigates which have design speeds between 29 to 32 knots. Most ships with 25 knots maximum are usually offshore patrol vessels or corvettes with an all-diesel propulsion in CODAD or CODOD configuration. The propulsion requirement calls for at least 2 engines, which is standard to most warships, but it did not indicate the propulsion configuration, leaving it open for bidders to propose and if it would incorporate other propulsion systems like gas turbine or electric system.
 |
| No indication that a gas turbine engine is required, although the specifications only allowed for minimum requirements. Photo taken from General Electric website. |
Previously the Philippine Navy high command announced the preference on use of diesel engines or diesel engines in conjunction with a higher output alternative power source for high speed operations. This was the main reason why they rejected earlier offers by the US government for COGAG-configured Oliver Hazard Perry-class frigates so it is safe to assume that 2 diesel engines are the minimum. So we could either see a CODOD/CODAD configuration, or CODOG at best depending on what the bidders can offer.
The specifications also included a clause that requires the hull design to be based on a proven design that passed extensive model tests, with emphasis on survivability, being able to withstand damage and flooding in any 2 adjacent watertight compartments. This is very important since the ship will be used for combat operations and high-threat environments. This clause also strongly supports the previous requirements disallowing the AFP to be end-users of unproven designs. This would hurt some of the prospected bidders like ST Engineering which may offer a design that is unproven although derived from a smaller but proven ship's design.
The organic complement appears to be a matter of function of design and automation according to the proposal, but since budget is a major factor, MaxDefense expects the ship to have less automation compared to most recent designs. This would push the number of crew to a higher level, with an estimated crew of around 160 men and women. Non-organic complement includes the aviation crew and pilots (4 pilots, 2 TACCOs, 8 enlisted personnel), a SEAL team for special operations (1 officer and 7 enlisted personnel) and might also include enough accommodations for task force officers (1 senior officer, 1 junior officer, 1 enlisted personnel) indicating that the frigates can be used as task force ships or SEAL insertion platforms.
 |
| A PN SEAL team, together with their RHIB can call the new frigates their home. Photo taken from US Navy website. |
The navigation requirements appear to be standard, and is somehow available on some of the Philippine Navy's current assets. Same for the communications requirements as well except for the requirement for connectivity to "Littoral Observation Stations", which MaxDefense believes to be the National Coast Watch System. Such system is also currently available with the BRP Gregorio del Pilar. A requirement for a future Data Link is also present, and appears to be "fitted for but not with" due to the absence of such system within the AFP. Upon decision of the AFP which type would be used by the entire armed forces, only then can a Data Link be installed on the ship. Due to the Philippine military's close relationship with the US, it is expected that the Data Link will somehow be an American type, possibly the Link 16.
It is in the weapons and sensors that MaxDefense finds interesting discussion. The minimum requirement calls for a 2-dimensional (2D) air search and surface search radar systems. This appears to be contradictory to what the PN was planning for some time. Previously a released Request for Information (RFI) by the US Navy's Naval Sea Systems Command 2 years ago requires a minimum of a 3D-radar set for a possible PN OPV requirement. Also, 2D-radar sets may not be able to complement most modern anti-aircraft missiles, as the system can only provide bearing and range information but not the elevation. Examples of 2D radar sets that fits the range include Saab's Sea Giraffe LT, Selex's RAN30X/I, and Terma's Scanter 4100 series, which are mostly used for small OPVs or as secondary radar systems for surface combatants.
 |
| A 2D-radar system was specified for the air and surface search radar requirements. Above is the Selex RAN30X/I which appears to meet the requirements. Photo taken from Selex Sistemi Integrati website. |
The requirement for sonar systems, which only said as capable of active and passive detection modes, remains a mystery due to lack of further information. No specific information if t would be a hull-mounted sonar, a towed array sonar, or both. This would probably be clarified later on as the project matures.
The ship's main gun will be a 76mm type, probably an Oto Melara model due to commonality with current PN systems. Although not in the specifications, the earlier report from Commodore Suarez's interview indicated a 120rpm gun, which is possibly the 76mm Super Rapid version. A secondary gun was also specified, and was designated in the specifications as a "CIWS" but did not mention the capability to shoot down incoming high speed targets like anti-ship missiles or aircraft. MaxDefense believes that the specification meant it be probably like the Mk. 38 Mod. 2 gun planned for the Gregorio del Pilar-class frigates to simplify logistics and support.
 |
| A 76mm main gun capable of firing 120 rounds per minute is being considered. Above shows the Oto Melara 76mm Super Rapid naval gun. Photo taken from naval-technology.com. |
An Electronic Countermeasures (ECM) suite appears to be not specified, although ESM and RDF were included in the Electronic Wafare (EW) system. Anti-ship missile and torpedo decoy launchers are also required, and will be integrated to the CMS and EW systems. Further clarification might be made if a full ECM suite is needed, similar to the AN/SLQ-32 used by the US Navy and LIG Nex1's Sonata EW System. MaxDefense places this requirement on top of priorities in the absence of an effective anti-aircraft and CIWS system as active defense against incoming missiles.
 |
| Labelled by the DND and PN as a CIWS, the specifications appear to point out to a secondary gun system similar to the Mk.38 Mod.2 gun mount that are scheduled to be installed on the PN's Gregorio del Pilar-class frigates. This gun system is not designed to shoot down incoming missiles, but can be used for slow and small surface targets like terrorist or pirate boats. |
The numbers of anti-ship missiles appears to be below the standard mount of similar-sized ships, but the ship would possibly be able to carry up to 8 launchers when necessary as this is the standard number of mounts designed for launching tubes. Requirement is for it to have an active homing seeker and ECCM capability, and a minimum range of 50km. This means missiles like the Boeing Harpoon and MBDA Exocet Blk. III are acceptable, while shorter ranged missiles like MBDA's Marte Mk.2 are out.
 |
| The specifications require a surface-to-surface missile with a minimum range of 50km, with active homing seeker and ECCM capability. Among possible offers may include the MBDA MM40 Exocet Block III anti-ship missile. |
But the surface-to-air missile requirement is the most surprising of all, with a minimum range of only 6.0km, mounted in a quadruple launcher. Such requirement means that the minimum air defense requirement is something similar to the MBDA Mistral IR-homing very short range air defense (VShoRAD) missile mounted on a Tetral quadruple mount. Such missile system is not advisable for modern frigate-sized combat vessels as it lacks the range, thus decreasing the capability to defend itself. It decreases the number of defensive layers of the ship, making it easy for OPFOR aircraft with stand-off weapons to engage the frigate, firing at a distance without expecting any defensive threats. Also, the lack of effective air defense system plus the absence of an anti-missile CIWS makes the ship a sitting duck to missile attacks. But since it is just the minimum requirement, contenders can still propose a better system.
 |
| Above is the Tetral quadruple launcher for the navalized Mistral VSHORAD missile from MBDA. Indonesia's Diponegoro-class (SIGMA) corvettes are armed with such system. |
MaxDefense's Opinion:
This project is a 2-stage competitive bidding, and MaxDefense believes that the specifications released by the DND is NOT FINAL for the frigate project. Since the coming bid would only be a first out of two rounds, it will only accept bidders who would pass the requirements and not yet determine the final winner.
In short, the 1st stage bidding's specifications are still bound to change, subject to the offer of accepted bidders that may exceed what was initially specified for the project. They will be given a chance to make use of their capability to provide a product that maximizes the budget allocated. Thus, we cannot make a final conclusion yet based on the information we have, but it is highly possible that the final product would definitely be better.
The current specifications does not point to that of a modern frigate due to the following reasons:
- it lacks enough information for possible "fitted for but not with" requirements should the PN find additional funds to upgrade the ships;
- reduced mobility due to low speed and low power for acceleration;
- it has an insufficient active and passive defensive capability;
- a relatively reduced detection and tracking capability;
- lack of strong anti-aircraft system with enough reach;
- unclear ASW detection capability;
- lack of emphasis on stealth or reduced radar cross section capability.
The DND and PN should give more emphasis on items that will be fixed on the ship permanently or for long term, like the hull design, space considerations, propulsion system, and radar system. MaxDefense believes that the PN should have considered at least a 3D radar system as a minimum requirement, and avoid the need to replace the proposed 2D-radar once a decision to upgrade will be made in the future. Propulsion is another fixed system that needs to be looked into.
The DND and PN appears to have given emphasis on the "fitted for but not with" items, as it seems that the direction is on that path. Although no information was released regarding this matter, it is expected to be clearer in the 2nd stage bidding. Ship size and dimension, and power generation requirements are relevant to this, as the ship must be ready to accept such upgrades when the time comes. This lack on initial capability is the consequence of under-funding the project.
 |
| The 1st-stage bidding specifications of the ship has a light sensors and weapons system suite, and may be comparable to an improved Pattani-class OPV of the RTN, as shown above. Photo taken from mdc.idv.tw. |
So is the PN Frigate a "Glorified Offshore Patrol Vessel" as many suggest it is?
NO. It is too early to say because of the complicated bidding procedure.
So until the 2nd-stage bidding starts, it is safe to say that everything is bound to change for the better than what was released in the 1st-stage bid specifications.
MaxDefense will be closely monitoring the updates for this project, with the pre-bid conference scheduled this Friday (October 11, 2013), expect several questions to be thrown and answered at the Supplemental Bid Bulletins in the coming days. 1st-stage bid submission is originally scheduled on the October 25, 2013, with the opening to be done on the same day.
For the complete 1st-stage bidding specifications, an open copy was posted here:
http://www.mediafire.com/view/cjw5782dz18176i/Bid(3)
For more information the concept of a 2-stage bidding, please see here, starting at page 85:
http://www.gppb.gov.ph/downloadables/forms/GPM%20-%20Vol.2.pdf
==================================================
Updates:
October 25, 2013:
For those asking, according to the Supplemental Bid Bulletin released by the DND on October 18, 2013, the PN Frigate acquisition program schedule has been moved. Probably due to complexity of the project, there will be a 2nd pre-bid conference on November 11, 2013. The 1st bid submission and opening is also moved, from October 25, 2013 to November 25, 2013. Also be reminded that this is a 2-stage bidding process, so don't expect any winners on the bid opening date yet. For further details on the 2-stage bidding process, read this blog again.
====
November 21, 2013:
The bid submission and opening of the Philippine Navy Frigate acquisition program was moved from November 25, 2013 to December 4, 2013. This is to provide more time for bidders to formulate their offers. Details are provided on the Supplemental Bid Bulletin released by the DND on November 18, 2013.
===
December 6, 2013:
UNTV reported that there were 7 companies that submitted a bid for the frigate project. Although there is no indication on the report of which companies submitted a bid, 7 companies is good enough to make the project a competitive one. A copy of the video was posted HERE.
===
February 7, 2016:
WIth new information released, let's re-do the summary found on the first part of this blog entry:
Technical Specifications:
Budget: Php 18 billion for 2 brand-new frigates.
Capabilities:
- Anti-Air Warfare (AAW), Anti-Surface Warfare (ASuW), Anti-Submarine Warfare (ASW), and Electronic Warfare (EW);
- Extended Maritime Patrol with embarked helicopter;
- Participate in Joint Maritime Operations
- Operation on up to Sea State 7
- Stealth design
Dimesions: minimum 95 meters long, per function of design (depend on bidder's proposed design)
Displacement: minimum 2,000 tons, per function of design (depend on bidder's proposed design)
Range: 4,500 nautical miles @ 15 knots;
Endurance: 30 days in tropical condition;
Speed: maximum continuous of 25 knots;
Boats Carried: minimum of two 7-meter Rigid Hull Inflatable Boats;
Operating Environment:
- Operation at Sea State 7,
- Non-degradation of ASuW, AAW, EW mission at Sea State 5;
- Non-degradation of ASW mission at Sea State 4;
- Helicopter operation at Sea State 4;
- RHIB operations at Sea State 3
Complement: per function of design (depend on bidder's proposed design), but will have a non-organic crew of 9 officers, 16 enlisted personnel (embarked Task Force/air crew/1 SEAL team.)
Propulsion: CODAD with 4 diesel engines, 2 propellers with reduction gear box;
Power Supply: minimum of 3 diesel generators;
Replenishment at Sea Capable.
Navigation Equipment:
- 2 navigation radars (X-band and S-band), solid state design, capable of Automatic Radar Plotting Aid (ARPA), Automatic Identification System (AIS) and Automatic Tracking Aid (ATA);
- DGPS;
- Integrated Navigation Bridge
- Automatic Identification System
- depth sounding set;
- vessel tracking system compatible to Philippine Navy's system
Communications:
- Standard VHF AM/FM and UHF radios;
- Satelite Communications (SATCOM) system;
- Identification Friend or Foe (IFF) system;
- Integrated Communications System;
- Voice Over Internet Protocol (VOIP);
- With proponent's Tactical Data Link;
- Fitted for but not with Tactical Data Link (NATO standard), still to be determined which type, supplied by PN;
- Local Area Network (LAN);
Sensors, minimum requirement:
- Combat Management System (CMS), readily upgradable & proven design;
- Fire Control System integrated to CMS, can track and engage surface, air and missile targets simultaneously;
- Fire Control Radar and Electro-Optical targeting system;
- Electronic Support Measures (ESM);
- 3D air/surface search radar for air & surface surveillance and target acquisition, minimum range of 100nmi for aerial targets and 40nmi for sea targets, can detect sea-skimming missiles with maximum altitude of 10ft., integrated to ESM and CMS;
- Passive and Active Bow-mounted Sonar system;
- Decoy launcher minimum 6 tubes per side
- Fitted for but not with Towed Array Sonar System
Weapons Systems, minimum requirement:
- 76mm gun @ 120rpm at forward section with target tracking radar and/or electro-optical target acquisition and fire control computer;
- minimum 1 x stabilized 30mm to 40mm secondary gun;
- 4 x 50-caliber machine guns;
- primary and secondary guns shall be integrated to combat management system;
- 4 x surface-to-surface missile launchers, minimum 150km range, active homing seeker and ECCM capability;
- surface-to-air missile launching system, minimum two twin launchers, minimum 6km range, IR or semi-active homing seeker, with ECCM and/or IR CCM capability;
- 2 x triple lightweight anti-submarine torpedo launchers, minimum range 2km, minimum depth 500m, with acoustic countermeasures capability, one on each side;
- Fitted for but not with 8-cell VLS launcher
Flight Capability: Hangar and deck facilities for at least 1 helicopter up to 12-tons.
Helicopter Hangar Dimensions: 15.6m L x 7.24m W x 5.7m H, capable of accepting 10-ton helicopter design;
==================
Nice find. Just need to point out the range requirement for air search radar is 80NM minimum against "air contacts". Only Scanter 4100 meets this spec of the three radars mentioned.
ReplyDelete"The Hull form shall be generated from a proven design by a previously built similar vessel that passed extensive model tests in a renowned model basin."
ReplyDeleteThe only light frigates built within the last ten years matching or approaching the endurance and days-at-sea requirements fitted with hangars for 10-ton helicopters are the Moroccan SIGMAs (but 9-ton helicopters only), the Franco-Singaporean Deltas, the SK Incheons, and the bigger Venezuelan Avantes.
And one more: Oman's UK-built Khareefs. Consideration should be given to whether or not the requirement allows at-sea replenishment to reach the number of days asked for.
Delete"Capable of covering a minimum of 4,500 Nautical Miles at a
Deletecruising speed of 15 knots."
"Can sustain operational presence at sea for a minimum of 30 days in tropical conditions."
"The CMS must be readily upgradeable according to new technologies and requirements".
Even Spain's BAM patrol ships can't meet the first two requirements without at-sea replenishment. Everything considered it seems what they have in mind is a big ship lightly-armed initially but amenable to future upgrades.
http://www.armada.mde.es/ArmadaPortal/page/Portal/ArmadaEspannola/buques_unidades/prefLang_es/04_buq_accion_maritima--04_fich_tecnica_es
^ Range and endurance are functions of design -- including but not limited to the fuel tanks, fuel efficiency and storerooms.
DeleteExample: the 90-mtr HTMS Krabi, a BAe-designed OPV has a range of 5,500NM and an endurance of 35 days.
Also -- re-read your posted ref.
BAM has an endurance of 35 days and range of --
"AutonomÃa combustible: 3500 millas a 15 nudos + 12 dÃas a 6 nudos + 3500 a 12 nudos" (Fuel Range: 3500 miles @ 15 knots + 12 days at 6 knots + 3500 @12 knots.) <-- which describe a typical patrol profile of the ship.
I stand corrected on the BAM. Range/endurance is indeed a function of design mainly the size to accomodate sufficient fuel and provisions. BAM has room for both but lacks enough for weapons (consider the firing arc on that 76mm). The engines may be efficient but maximum speed at 20.5kts speaks to a lack of power.
DeleteIn contrast POVZEE has the space to employ weapons properly, the engines to deliver the speed required, but lacks the range and endurance. The requirements pointing to a larger vessel follows from these observations.
Most of the ships you highlighted are actually not frigates, like the Avante-BAM and Krabi are both OPVs. Singapore Deltas, you mean the Formidable-class? It's actually based on the French LaFayette-class, although ST Engineering has a new frigate design they might offer.
DeleteYes, Project Delta aka the Formidable-class, slightly larger than the Incheons. BAM is a "patrol ship", but I wouldn't deny the label "light frigate" to the 99-meter POVZEEs, 98m-105m Moroccan SIGMAs, and 99m Omani Khareefs, displacing at least 2,000t each.
DeleteAs built the "light frigates" listed come in at $200 to $300 million. The budget is $417 million for two ships. It won't be semantics that wins the day here.
DeleteIt will be impossible for ST Engineering to offer the Formidable-class as it is since they costed more than the budget allocated by the DND. Also the design rights are owned by DCNS, not ST Engineering. But ST have their own design based on the Fearless-class patrol vessels, as discussed previously in earlier MaxDefense blogs. Last time I checked, the Omani Khareefs cost just over the DND budget, but British made ships are usually more expensive so they will probably lose if BAE will join.
DeleteThe Steregushchy-class of Russia is also good, it is a Corvette but it is considered a Frigate by NATO.. with 104 Meter length and a speed of 27 knots, it is a good ship for a price of about 120-150 USD.. The disadvantage of this ship is its endurance of only 15 days, its half the requirement and has no anti-air weapons, but it has 3 CIWS systems. It is meant for anti-submarine and anti-surface purposes.. Hope the Russians participate, we could just upgrade it and put some AAW's.
DeleteCongrats, Max. MaxDefense is in the news again.
Deletehttp://manilatimes.net/new-frigates-on-order-most-heavily-armed-ships-of-ph-navy/44057/
ST Marine's New Generation Frigate looks very impressive.
Deletehttp://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr327/happywho/IMDEX%202013/20130515_124116.jpg
http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr327/happywho/IMDEX%202013/20130515_124204.jpg
If ST Engineering submits a bid, I am hoping this is what they offer. I did discussed with ST Engineering before but they don't want to disclose the pricing to me that time. My worry is if it would fit the budget considering that ST Engineering has some premium in their products both sea and land platforms.
DeleteAmusing, but the author of the Manila Times news is the Philippine News Agency (PNA), a government agency. Why would they take me as the source when they can go directly to PhilGEPS and DND for the information?
DeleteRequirement is for proven design from a previously-built hull. Problema iyan for ST Marine and the NGF. :(
Deletehope the 11 firms in our bidding priced their frigates that we can afford, i don't really like the specs of our 2 brandnew frigates, they call it modernization but we still buying 80s type of frigates, but still better to have than nothing .
DeleteThe technical specifications is just a minimum requirements if the government is really want a multi-role frigate than add addtional funds into the original budget. Because it is hard to put a complete warfare capability for ASuw, ASW and AAW with constraint budget. Even a stealth designed 2,000 plus displacement of a light frigate is almost cost us PHP7B only on the platform alone. So sir max your assessment is right but do we have enough money to consider the MRF capability and its longer sustainment. Remember President Aquino has just announced it needs a seed money of almost PHP4.3T for the AFP and PNP pension. So now, if we are true to our country man is really an OPV or corvette what we want in terms of the present budget. It is hard to have a platform with fitted for but not with for future upgrade because base on my research this has become the problems encountered by the G7 countries stability, power and cooling requirements anfd other accessories that would affect the original designed of the platform. Not to mention in our existing budhget we re looking now imto prototype designed of the existing light frigate or corvette. The Indonesia SIGMA 10514 is sigma type of platform not a frigate. To have a light frigate we must have a displacement platform of 3,000 ton plus or MRF 4,000pls displacement. What do you thimk?
DeleteIt's Freedom class alike but smaller,..and will be the most modern Frigate in this region. Due to the Philippine people close relationship with the US, they will give us more benefit in this project.
ReplyDeleteI think Nicky will be agree with my opinion, right?
To a point because the Freedom class LCS is nowhere near a frigate or a Corvette. If PN wants a true frigate and a corvette, then they need to talk to the Netherlands on the SIGMA corvette or France on the Gowind Corvette. As for Frigates, talk to Russia on the Talwar class Frigate.
DeleteThe LCS has been criticized in the US as being poorly armed, unnecessarily quick, and too expensive. I'm sure we can do better.
DeleteIn the US, you have people like me, who hate the LCS so much that they we to get rid of the LCS and replace it with a Frigate, Corvette and MCM. The LCS is a thin-skinned, under armed pop gun, glorified US Coast Guard medium endurance cutter, painted Haze grey. It's also a Gas HOG that is dependent on oilers or replenishment ships
DeleteThe term "LCS" is just a marketing name made by American shipbuilders to make them "more sell-able". These ships can be considered frigates by right as they fit the description of such ships. If the USN opt to, they can put heavier caliber guns and additional missile launchers to it. Malaysia's Lekiu-class frigates and upcoming Gowind-based ships are considered frigates but also uses the 57mm "pop-up" gun
DeleteThe problem with the LCS, is that it's to lightly armoured. Too Thin skinned and one massive gas hog. It also has too few crews to maintain the ship. It's why their are some in the US that are calling to cancel the LCS and the left overs be used for PC & MCM duties.
DeleteWhat fits the proposal is the SIGMA Corvette/Frigate, Gowind corvette,MEKO 200 and the Talwar class Frigate.
ReplyDeleteTake a look at South Africa, they have the Valour class Frigate, which is an MEKO A-200 design. The Talwar class frigate is another Indian/Russian designed Frigate.
DeleteNicky, the Meko A-200 design joined the recently awarded Thai Navy frigate program, and it lost because it exceed the Thai's budget of $500 millio per ship. We are talking about a $210 million ship here. Larsen & Toubro has shown indication of interest in the project, so far the only Indian company to make some moves. They dropped out of the SSV project.
DeleteOther than that, maybe the Talwar class frigate would be good for PN. You would essentially get a Russian ship that can be fitted with western weapons and electronics.
DeleteCan't wait till Friday :) Hopefully we'll get more than one bidder later on. The koreans will probably join but who else? hmmm
ReplyDeleteFriday (11th) is still the PRE-BID CONFERENCE, where the interested vendors can ask the DND-Bid and Awards Comm on some clarifications regarding the technical specs. The schedule submission and opening of bids will still be on the 25th (if not requested by the vendors for postponement).
DeleteThose who will attend tomorrow -- is not an assurance that they will bid; or only those that will be NOT BE attending have not or will not buy the bid documents and participate.
Anyone can be in the pre-bid conference today. Anyone can also buy the bid documents but only a few have the guts to actually submit a bid. Let's see who they are later on.
DeleteLet me see, what will we get with 200 million dollars price tag for most powerful frigate in the region?
ReplyDeleteIncheon class frigate price just lower than 200mil buck, so we will get more modern than korean.
i agree for incheon because this multi-combat frigate have SSM , ASW , cruise missile and RIM-116 Rolling Airframe Missile . this was a very juicy offer by the korean , i hope the DND will grab this opportunity . but there are also many more frigate like MEKO 200 that mention by nicky earlier .
DeleteThe closest specs of the proposed new ships is the SIGMA class.. Hope this turns out good for us...
ReplyDeletethe Russians may offer there Steregushchy-class, i think this is also a good ship, but its endurance is only 15 days,.. but it only cost 120-150 M USD.. for a budget of about 418 millon, we could buy 3 of this ships... The Incheon class and formidable class is a good sport, i kust dont know if our underfund budget be enough for these ships..
we need bigger ships Steregushchy-class is a corvette .. if russia was interested in the bidding , i hope they offer gepard class ..
DeleteGepard is also a corvette.
DeleteSteregushchy-class is a corvette but it has dimensions of 104.5 m length and 11.6m wide and a displacement of up to 2200 tons.. gepard is a frigate with 102 m and 13 m wide and up 1930 tons at full load.. I dont know why the stergushchy class is considered a corvette with its size and displacement while the gepard is considered a frigate, maybe the gepard is much more heavelly armed?? NATO considers the Steregushchy-class as a frigate.. the only problem with the Steregushchy-class is it lacks anti-air warfare, maybe because it is intended of ASW and anti-ship warfare.. It think it is a good frigate, considering its size, and its price.. and it has 3 CIWS system.. the PN could upgrade it in the future and put some AAW's
DeleteVietnam's Gepards have the Kashtan CIWS which can fire 9M311 SAMs (same anti-air armament as older Stereguschys). The newest Stereguschy has the Redut VLS loaded with 9M96 SAMs. O.o
Deletehttp://giaoduc.net.vn/Uploaded/huuky/2012_06_18/9_tau_chien_Gepard_PS-500_viet_nam_giaoduc.net.vn.JPG
https://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/4527/81237179.98/0_6a21e_5ff9f_XL.jpg
If the budget is short why don't we procure just one frigate, one that has all the requirements of a modern warship and use whatever is left, if any, to buy second hand from other countries. Even those ships being decommissioned by other countries are still at par with the Phil. Navy specs.
ReplyDeleteMultiple dissimilar ships and equipment will be a logistical and training headache. Also -- as reviewed, through-life studies had shown that second hand units will eventually be more expensive.
DeleteThere is no stopping DND/PN to procure for a higher-spec'd combatant five years from now. The current constraint is the P75B from the annual budgets in the next five years. And all three services -- PAF, PN, and PA have to share these. Budget allocation is a political decision.
We're finally procuring bnew...don't stop now! Just fast track that damn bidding and let's get over it... ha ha...So the next thread of discussion is PN's very first submarine...
DeleteThe Phil. Navy should consider 3D radar and a verticle missile launcher which can launch different missiles for specific purposes even longer ranged torpedo rockets. This may come out more economical.
ReplyDeleteTommorow is the day, hope the winner in the bidding has a great offer to us..
ReplyDeleteI think the 6 km range of anti-air missile is for CIWS- expected by most is the Mistral, for the engines and propulsion, the diesel engines are good, so this ships are meant really for defense..
hope the change the radars from 2d to 3d, and i hope to see in the armamnets list are the RBS 15 for SSM, Aster missile for AAW, eurotorp for ASW and some depth charge.. a CIWS like dardo or Mistral CIWS like the sadral or simbad defense missile.. and I hope this one goes smoothly..
As commented above -- tomorrow, Friday (11th) is only the pre-bid conference. It's where when those interested vendors can official ask the DND-BAC on some questions from the bid documents.
DeleteI suggest SMART S for surface search radar, Samsung Thales for Naval Shield Integrated Combat Management System, MICA VLS anti air missiles, Exocet Block III anti ship missiles, Goalkeeper CIWS at MU90 Impact torpedoes.
ReplyDeleteConsidering that the delivery date is expected to be around 4 years later, it possible for the Philippines to simply bid for the hulls, engines, and fixed components first then later negotiate with the winner for installing additional equipment around a year or two once they have more funds?
ReplyDeleteAgree with this. Like the SSV, radar and weapons for future integration.
DeleteThis procurement is for complete ships, which includes the sensors, weapons, ammos, integration, training and warranty support.
DeleteIntegration is the most difficult phase in the procurement of a complicated warship. This is where some suppliers had fumbled before causing delays in the final delivery of the units.
“As initially envisioned, Lockheed Martin’s original ExLS worked with ships equipped with either MK 41 or MK 57 Vertical Launch Systems, and we saw an opportunity expand the capability,” said Colleen Arthur, director of Integrated Defense Systems for Lockheed Martin’s Mission System and Sensors business.
Delete“With new standalone ExLS configuration, ships do not have to be equipped with a larger vertical launching system and can quickly and affordably adapt to different types of munitions.”
http://www.defencetalk.com/lockheed-standalone-launching-system-exls-weapons-integration-costs-42612/
http://www.ihs.com/events/exhibitions/dsei-2013/news/day-4/CAMM-launch-from-VLS.aspx
i don't think that the DND will do that , if we buy the full frigate w/weapons we can cut the price .
Delete“The UNIMAST will make a huge difference to a vessel’s operational capability. Historically, Navies installed and qualified multiple sub-systems, and then struggled to operate them simultaneously to their optimum performance - those days are over.” said Lorenzo Mariani, Managing Director of Selex ES’s Land & Naval division, adding; “Our expertise goes from large systems integration through to best-of-breed enabling-sensors and communications, so we’re able to combine systems into a single structure and ensure they operate seamlessly together.”
Deletehttp://www.selex-es.com/-/unimsat
Max has raised the possibility of a funding shortfall. One solution proposed was accepting reduced capabilities in some areas to benefit those of higher priority. The very minimal specifications for SAMs is that solution in practice. Better weapons and sensors emerge every year but it's the hull we're stuck with for decades. Better missiles are welcome if offered but it's unwise to accept compromise where it truly hurts for the sake of a false sense of security.
DeleteAs already written in the specs, the frigate budget already includes the sensors and weapons, and will be fully usable when delivered. But the PN may still opt to go "fitted for but not with" on other items. Example, the quadruple SAM launcher may be an interim solution but the ship is design to carry VLS launchers should the PN opt to upgrade the ships later on.
DeleteI agree with the analysis of Max, it questionable on why PN opting for 2d radar instead of 3d radar and no CIWS mentioned on the requirement. plus limited AAW capability it should install a more potent AAW like the Syler VLS which uses Aster 15 and 30 missile.
ReplyDeleteAs Max has said... the specs presented is the lowest or minimum specified for the 1st stage. A vendor can specify for higher capability subsystems as long as it remained on the specs. It will also give DND-BAC an option when moving into the 2nd stage to uprate the specs comparable to at least one of the proponents.
DeleteA skilled supplier can actually outplay his competitors by presenting an uprated proposal, hoping --:
* that DND-BAC will revised the specs to their advantage in the 2nd stage; and
* that their competitors will have a hard time price matching their proposal.
Hi Jendrick, having the Aster series missiles will surely drain the budget, reportedly it's one of the most expensive missiles out there.
DeleteHi 49r, it is expected that such gameplay wil happen, although I am still hoping that the capped budget is still enough for such adjustments. It's too difficult to say because of that very tight budget.
DeleteHi Max, DASAT/BAC included considerable ammunition/missile cost on the bid. This took out a chunk of the already limited budget-- that could have been allocated for better subsystems or increased capability. $10-20M would have made a difference.
DeleteI agree with Max that there should be items to consider as fixed items like 3D radar and propulsion system. Can't the VLS be installed already with some of the required munitions/missiles procured later.
DeletePersonally I'm quite bias with the " Incheon class" frigate . Basing on the minimum requirements of the DND it should offer more with better sensors and weapon systems for a reasonable amount. They can dispense with the land attack cruise missiles and probably opt for the 76 mm surface gun for commonality and cut the overall cost . The SK are currently looking to export this class and hopefully the PN would be the first recipient. A second option would be the Saar 72 corvette which may probably be within the proposed minimum requirements . The only thing is whether the Israel are one of the bidders . I just hope the DND would not settle for less since this would be a first in the PN history and not the last. Go Navy!
ReplyDeletewe already buy trucks(ambulance KM250-450) and jets(not yet final but surely) and in the future they can also offer changbogo class submarine . . and for the corvette our government are also interested in retiring pohang class . . because korean offer a cheaper price . let's hope that the korean offer the incheon more cheaper .
DeleteOplan X, the Saar S-72 is actually very small in physical size to consider as a frigate, although firepower is sufficient. I doubt the Saar 72 can outpace a standard frigate in terms of range, endurance and high sea state operations.
DeleteThis bidding is going to be specs vs specs the higher specs but still within the 18 billion budget will win
ReplyDeleteIn my opinion, definitely there are companies ready to provide us 2 Frigates as required by PN at 18 Billion PHP. However these companies will attached a clauses such as "exclusive supplier of materials/ammunition". For example,"Raytheon" will help Daewoo to compete in this bidding and willing to co-finance to built these Frigates. However the armaments must be made by Raytheon and all materials/ammunition can only purchase to them.
ReplyDeleteLogically, the more materials/ammo are used - Raytheon will become more profitable. Ship hauls and other equipments, lasted for decades before we look for replacement.
Of course, ammunition especially missiles and torpedoes are solely manufactured by their respective companies. MBDA cannot supply Raytheon products, and the other way round. Missiles are not like bullets or cannon rounds that are fit to certain standards like NATO's standards for 76mm, so we can source ammunition for the Oto Melara gun from other sources.
Deletethis have to wait for years, just get a re-equiped refurbished one. we're too eager for new ones we seem to forget the immediate detterence. its better than nothing. taiwan and china has been having surveyes already. we have so many pests it turned into cancer. taiwans expanding the base.
ReplyDeleteThere are several groups that push for the purchase of interim warships while new warships are still in the yard. The problem is if the government is ready to provide additional funding, especially after the hold-order on using the Malampaya Special Fund which is probably the source of such budget.
Deletehopes for this lie with the SoKors. whether or not they win the frigate bidding, let's hope they offer the retiring Pohangs (or even Ulsans if the former is not possible) at very 'friendly' (as in almost or near tomas batillo) prices. Them winning the bid and/or the finalization of the f/a-50 deal will make this much more likely.
Deletecan someone suggest,why the saar 5 cannot be part of the deal or be choosen as the next frigate,it is small and has hangar but it can be a blue water ship
ReplyDeletesir max, is there a possibility that a bidder would offer that the second frigate will be built here in the Philippines to meet the 18 billion pesos budget for 2 new frigates and to reduced labor cost....?In order that a bidder would be a Potential Winner of the Project.
ReplyDeleteBuilding locally does not really translate into savings, and might even escalate cost. This is a 'limited scale production' or a one-off event and not a serial production.
DeleteYou will have to content with the cost of a local start-up and mobilization, bringing in of new equipment, importation cost, training of new people, etc.
Now -- if you think about ToT (Transfer of Technology) -- then it's not about lower cost.
Moreover, foreign gov't sometimes provides subsidy to their industry so that they can provide jobs to their locals and sustain their industries.
Sir, any update about who has join the bid?
ReplyDeleteboss, parang wala pang update ngayon ehh, DND now are Secretive on this Project...kahit sa google di mo ma-makita about happenings that transpire on this day!
DeleteWhat's the latest update?
ReplyDeleteDennis
AT LEAST WE ARE MAKING BIG CHANGES WHEN IT COMES TO WHAT TYPE OF MILITARY EQUIPMENT WE HAVE TO BUY, KAHIT PA ISA ISA LANG YANG BASTA AT PAR WITH THE MILITARY OF 21ST CENTURY OK NA YAN. BETTER THAN 2ND HAND N MABAGAL NA IHINDI PA KAYA DEPENSAHAN ANG SARILI. BUYING MODERN WAR EQUIPMENT IS THE ONLY WAY WE CAN GET RESPECT FROM OUR NEIGHBOR COUNTRIES.
ReplyDeleteAT LEAST WE ARE MAKING PROGRESS WHEN IT COMES TO OUR DEFENSE EQUIPMENT. KAHIT PA ISA ISA BASTA BRAND NEW AT WITH COMPLETE WEAPONRY OK YAN. THATS THE ONLY WAY WE CAN GET RESPECT FROM OUR NEIGHBOR COUNTRIES.
ReplyDeleteAt least we are making progress when it comes to modernizing our national defense, i don't really care if we have to do it piece by piece as long as we are buying those that are at par with the 21st military equipment. i believe thats the only way we can get respect from our neighbor countries. stop buying second hand ships or planes that are not even capable of depending it self. GO PHILIPPINES!
ReplyDeleteMaybe it's just a clever move of DND, I know some of them together with the PN will not totally agree about the specs of the planned frigate. We must wait and see for the futures to come for this acquisition project.
ReplyDeleteMaybe it's just a clever move of DND, I know majority of them together with the PN will not totally agree about the specs of the said frigates.We must wait and see for the futures to come to this acquisition project, I know we together with our government will be satisfied if the frigate is finalize.
ReplyDeletebuilding locally can be done in near future, slowly, step by step, starting with locally upgrades, then design, the production. the MPAC and BRP Tabuana is a good start. then this projects should continue. after maybe exports. But for now. the 2 new frigrates planned is a feasible start but the Navy should also think of at least 3 subs in near future with more gunboats and smaller crafts that are fast, evasive with SAMs and ship to ship missiles. I say combinations of all of these is a good strategy and the long term projects should be locally build ships for the Navy, we have the manpower and technology we just need discipline, honesty and transparancy. with the on going crackdown on corruption, there must be a light in the tunne.
ReplyDeleteMax about the "4 x surface-to-surface missile launchers, minimum 50km range, active homing seeker and ECCM capability" is that really 4x ? or 4x2 ??
ReplyDeleteProbably 2x2. But Harpoon and Exocet launchers, and most other anti-ship missile launchers can do quadruple when specified.
Deleteahh . so the launcher will looked like this ?
Deletehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:ExocetNerz.jpg
You will never get a powerful frigates. Ever
ReplyDeleteThanks for that negative attitude.
Deletehahah,,,50 cent Army, comment more so u could generate 50 yuan per click...
DeleteI'll pray for you bro, GO PILIPINAS!!!!
Deletethe SC should not affect the AFP using malampaya funds for upgrading. it is to defend our external threat. SC reconsider the the defenders of philippine nation.
ReplyDeletethe PN should have them armed with light rapid auto cannons bofors are useless against fast attack boats.
ReplyDeleteThere is a requirement for such weapons. Don't worry.
DeleteWhy not buy only one real or heavy frigate as our flagship and re-arm the hamiltons in the future.
ReplyDeleteBecause 1 frigate won't be available all the time.
DeleteWhy not 1 new frigate and 1 new corvette?
Deletethe only way for the AFP be modernized is when the leaders of the country will stop the plundering the national treasury. and focus more on passing sensible laws and good governance. we do not have to be poor. the country is rich in natural resources but mismanaged, plundered and abused by the leaders and to the same extent the people itself. Otherwise the AFP will have the 21st century equipment and weapon systems. There is money but stolen, just that simple.
ReplyDeleteAre there any preliminary results on the 1st bidding ? Anybody that we don't know joined the contenders .
ReplyDeleteThe bidding has not yet started so there's none yet as of today.
DeleteDon't bet on seeing Russian offers. The preference for getting NATO comparable Tactical Data Links would severely hurt any Russian offers.
ReplyDeleteano latest?
ReplyDeleteHi Max, it is out in the news 11 companies are interested in the above project and like the AH (armed helicopter project) famous names in the construction of naval ships are in the list including DCNS. It might end up just like the AH project only one will submit a bid which is not very advantageous to the AFP. Anyway, I hope you have an update on the AH project, and what type Augusta Westland is going to supply.
ReplyDeleteAgustaWestland is supplying AW109 for the AH project.
DeleteAs for the frigates, I think the specs is quite general and not specific to a certain design of shipbuilder.
Thanks for the update Max.
DeleteMy God...it's only AW-109...?Too light attack chopper...
DeleteIt's better to have than nothing at all.. c",)
Deleteok so we have dcns and ficantiere during the pre bid conference. I hope they offer a derivative of their fremm frigates or maybe a derivative of th formidable class frigates. Would this be possible sir max? This have very good anti air and anti sub systems
ReplyDeleteyup, mini version of FREMM or Formindable hehehehe right Paul?
DeleteDid you know how much FREMM or Formindable price tag?
There's no such thing as a mini FREMM or mini Formidable. But they could offer other alternatives.
DeleteJudging from what I have read Max, the Maestrelle might have been a better option if we count on capabilities, speed and the like but wasnt chosen due to it being old and has more cost in fuel
ReplyDeleteI think it is cheaper when compared to its specs.. Has both diesel and gas turbines with 33 knots running on Gas and 1 Knots running on diesel, Great Multi-purpose frigate.. and Only for 11.7 billion PHP for 2 ships.. And it can be transferred already unlike brand new in w/c we wait for 4 years.. For the Cost, it has diesel engines so i think it is not that costly in operation.. Complete with Dardo CIWS system, Teseo SSM, Aspide SAM, and torpedoes...
Deleteit's cost more fuel because of it's speed , despite of being old it's fully equipped and it''s quite experienced frigate. it is design to be Anti-sub warfare . it also have capabilities to defend itself against incoming missiles and air threat . beside it can give our navy personnel a modern ship to handle, and we can have a exercise with foreign navy without embarrassment. we can also procure 3 of it with 18 billion budget and possible for additional corvette or patrol ships as package, it is old but the italy offered a zero timing and training of crews as part of the package. we can also fight modern frigate or for example chinese navy frigates. we can scare their ships and submarine with this kind of ship, it is still not clear to me why our govt. drop it, i believe that the DND is still interested to it, and go back there to buy all 3 and create a plan to buy the other 5 . i think max will agree to this right ? but it appears to me like a dream .
DeleteSeaRAM CIWS might be a good choice
ReplyDeleteAt the rate DND is proceeding w/ modernization
Deletewe'll still be worst equipped n technologically backward military in asia 10 years from now- n surrounded by bullies. The concept of Deterence more than anything else will guide us what to buy(or build) how soon when n where to be scrooges n to realize they are there to make sure bullies will think twice before they intimidate 100 million Filipinos. Like this frigate thing. We have 2 hi endurance hamiltons- budget them to fearsome upgrades. We should be planning for some 8-10 frigates in the next 8 years and a good no of missile boats. The same for the air force and the army- the DND must embrace technology as the key to Deterence- and if we do it intelligently every fiscal year we can afford it. We are projected to have a GDP of $270B nxt year- raising the military budget to 1.3% can maintain a big miltary force-but we'll need maybe max of $1B a year for acqusitions for the next 5 years. Anyway it frightens me that our military is not capable of using MBTs SAMs attack helis F16s etc because they have not seen one! May I make a suggestion for the frigate program? For $400M budget I suggest we get singapore's Endurance LST and the Moroccan version of the Sigma 9813 frigate- using 'their' specs. The builders should know bettet. Why the Endurance? For a disaster-prone country like ours it will not only be a big naval asset it will be a crisis asset as well. Max, if the DND keeps on doing what it has been doing - and if our government fails to wake up - we'll all be in harm's way sooner than we think. Thanks..... Sen Cit
I agree with this. Actually we are not broke, our taxpayers monies and national treasury is just going to the very corrupt politicians. If we jail all these crooks and confiscate all their ill gottne wealth and plus order them to return all the money they stole the AFP can upgrade to 21st century level in 3 years. you combine these stolen monies and they will all be worth in trillions of pesos or even dollars. so lets go get these crooks and make them pay.
Delete
ReplyDelete11 firms interested in P18-B ship deal
By Alexis Romero (The Philippine Star) | Updated October 15, 2013 - 12:00am
MANILA, Philippines - Eleven companies have expressed interest to join the bidding for the acquisition of two Navy ships worth P18 billion.
The 11 firms are Piriou Naval Services, Navantia Sepi (RTR Ventures), Thyssenkrupp Marine System, STX Offshore & Shipbuilding, Damen Shipyards, Fincantieri, STX France SA, Hyundai Heavy Industries, Inc., Garden Reach Shipbuilders & Engineers Ltd., DCNS France and Daewoo Shipbuilding & Marine Engineering Co. Ltd., according to data The STAR has obtained from the Department of National Defense (DND).
http://www.philstar.com/headlines/2013/10/15/1245431/11-firms-interested-
p18-b-ship-deal
Mas malakas na depensa pa siguro kung ibili na lang ang pera na iyan sa 4 or more na reconditioned/upgraded D'Estienne d'Orves light frigates mula sa France. Mas mabilis pa makukuha.
ReplyDeleteKailangang mapalitan ang mentalidad sa DND at Navy na gaya gaya lang sa U.S. at ibang western navies para sa pinaka bago at pinaka malaki na gamit barko. Kailangang iangkop natin ang gawain natin sa sitwasyon natin - kulang sa financial resources na nangangailangan ng madaliang pagpalakas ng depensa. Unless surrender na sila sa pagtatago pa rin sa saya ni Uncle Sam at papetek petek na lang.
Maswerte na tayo kung dadating yang mga mamahaling barkong iyan sa 2017. By that time ubos na EEZ natin.
China paranoid read this link
ReplyDeletehttp://english.chosun.com/
I hope this bidding will proceed to government to government transaction to speed up the acquisition of frigate that our navy's badly needed.
ReplyDeleteTo all who have a negative comments to our AFP, just wait until the end of October of this year on who is the winner of this bidding for two new frigates ok.... just give a chance to our Navy to choose the best frigates that suites our defense need.. I rather choose the incheon class for the affordability, specification/weapons and support....
ReplyDeleteYeah, hope the Incheon won the bidding.. Koreans are really helping us, even if those china bullies asked them not to sell us Fighter Planes they did not stop.. I wish they could also tell the chinese to stop selling arms to the NoKors!
DeleteGo Navy!!!!
ReplyDeletehope it will be Incheon or the india's kamorta class.
ReplyDeletejust praying and keeping my finger crossed as it was my dream to see my
motherland stronger again.
i think they would just get austal. bcoz it supplies the US navy. and so many jobs would be generated. the technology that austal cebu can pass to filipino engineers can one day be used to make a filipino modern frigate
ReplyDeletei hope the Incheon', much better if the batch 2 of Incheons will get"
ReplyDeletelitson kamo...brad...hindi incheon ..lol//// yan bagay sa mga kurakot ng gob. para ma high blood at mamatay na sila..
DeleteAng DnD ng Pilipinas ay walang alam ...kundi sumunod sa kung anong gusto ng kurakot na mga leader(other words..uto uto)..kac takot din mawalan ng trabaho kung sakali na mag anti govt sila..( in other words)..walang paninindigan sa sarili)...yan ang (katotohanan).
Yea Incheon batch 2 would be NICE if Daewoo wins
Deletehttp://img707.imageshack.us/img707/6720/pqy5.jpg
they move again the bidding.And there will be 2nd pre-bidding :/
ReplyDeleteThey move again the 1 stage bidding.And there will be 2nd pre-bidding :/ Can they make a deal before the year end?
ReplyDeleteDefinitely not. The 2nd stage bidding will probably be between December and February at most. Hopefully it won't take that long, but the DND and PN must be very careful in its decisions.
DeleteWhats the update on this..its already october 27..there's till no news if who joined the bidding
ReplyDeleteI posted an update on October 25, it's at the bottom of the blog article.
DeleteGud day max...been reading your blog ever since i heard of the modernization program by PN..just want to ask..is it true that the annual budget of dnd is 1.3% of the gdp?..was the budget for the previous yers been misallocated? I just hope that next year they would use the budget well..God bless..
DeleteThe ships from navantia and ficantiere seems to be good ships..this ships have vls..if you ask me ill go with a vls rather than that octuple launcher..
DeleteThe annual budget of the DND is actually less than 1% of the country's GDP. So in itself there is already an obvious underspending on defense as the recommended value should be at least 2% of the country's annual GDP (that's arpound $5 billion per year).
DeleteThe national budget passed on the Lower House for 2014 is Php 2.268 trillion. The DND gets Php 123 billion of which only Php 5 billion is for acquisitions, the rest is for salaries, operations, maintenance etc for the AFP. Another Php 10 billion coming from ``unprogrammed `` funds is supposed to be released to complete the Php 15 billion a year for the AFP modernization until 2017. The Php 75 billion modernization programme or the capability upgrade programme started in 2013 with a budget of Php 15 billion per year ends in 2017 unless the government releases new funding at that point in time. - Manuel
ReplyDelete@manuel
ReplyDeleteThank you for the explanation about the allocated budgets for AFP...appreciated it. The budget of Php 5 billion for acquisition is too small...i hope that some private entities would donate additional funds..or another country would give a military aid (just kidding on the military aid..just remembered what i read b4 that a certain country was giving $ 8 billion military aid to a certain country)..Good luck to the AFP modernization program..may they choose the best equipment possible with the allocated budgets. GOD BLESS.
Damn.....what happen to Fakeppines????? always releasing proposal projects..!! without accomplishment...!!
ReplyDeleteis that all u can....?????? what a shameful act...!
pls...put a bullet in their heads
What are you talking about? Obviously you did not read the blog because you still assume that nothing is being done.
DeleteAnonymousOctober 29, 2013 at 8:10 PM - about the "pls...put a bullet in their heads" you go first then i'm next .
Delete@renzo del mundo.. after you i'm next.. then the next bullet is pointed in your head renzo del mundo
DeleteQuit hiding under the name anonymous. Get otta here.
Delete@ Renzo Del Mundo....truth hurts right...??? Y ur so affected??? for what am i saying??? fakeppines DND alwys go for higher specification !! but we all know...for the last result//// they are short of fund again and again
ReplyDeleteand beside if the DND would not go for higher specification the defense mechanism of the frigate are useless....wasting of money...!!
@maxdefense....what do you think?????
ReplyDeleteyou have proof...? max????
what you saying here is all chitchat or talking(nothing been done yet)
so don't blame me for what i am said..!
@Renzo Del Mundo...im talking DND not you...to put a bullet in their heads...!!
There are already projects that were completed before, if you don't know. It includes the Sokol and SF-260FH, the 6 MPACs and BRP Tagbanua, the bullet assembly lines at GA, and several others more. While other procured items are already scheduled for delivery like the AW109E for the navy, just to name a few. You won't see immediate deliveries because these items are to be built and tested yet before sending to the AFP. You don't buy aircraft, ships and helicopters like buying in the grocery. You want proof? The least you can do is search the net. If not, go to Villamor Air Base in Pasay City, Fernando Air Base in Lipa, Batangas, in Mactan Cebu navy base or the Navy HQ dock in Roxas Blvd, or go to GA's facility in Limay, Bataan, wherever is closer to you. Don't hide under the anonymous name.
Delete..hey you idiot renzo del mundo.. this is just one of the projects that is still ongoing.. unlike the other that is already accomplished.. ksi ang utak niu pag may sinabing bibili ang pnas ng ganito, ganyan,, in.assume niu na na nabili natu.. max is just giving just updates whatsoever..
DeleteMax, don't even entertain this joker.
Deletemay epal na Chinese
ReplyDeletehindi ako chinese..pure pilipino ako..challenge yan kay MR. max...gago...!! kac puro lang siya dada ng dada.. kesyo dapat ganito ang bilhin ng pilipinas na frigate,dapat my ganito my ganyan!! ...wala namang nangyayari sa defenses natin... ikaw ang epal at sipsip...kung ano lang ang sabihin ng iba..naniniwala kana man agad..! wala kang panindigan sa sarili mo..o hindi ka manlang nag tatanong na bakit walang missile system ang BRP ALCARAZ at SOKOL HELICOPTER machine gun lang sa gilid,, paano mo matatawag yan na defense??? kac for rescue and relief operation lang yan...ang purpose nila!.. so manahimik ka kung wala kang ibang masabi!...
DeleteAnonymous, I do hope you know what you're talking about before criticizing. Because what you wanted to do is for the government to do magic. You don't just hasten everything then suddenly a war machine pops out of thin air and anyone can use it immediately. If that's your idea of military modernization, then maybe you can help fix the relief operations in Tacloban City as well.
Deleteyes i know what i am talking about! na wala silang kwentang tao! walang security ang mga tao at ang bansa!! to do magic? its not magic what i want them to do(word of honor)...i want reality things like if they say they want to buy like this...then so be it but according to their specification given! not like when the items arrived only 1 cannon a front or 2 machine gun at both side! how can an enemy hesitate to enter our territory if you have only 1 cannon?
Deletecriticizing is to encourage people to do better and to prove that the critics is wrong( that is my critization is all about)!
only i can do in Tacloban City is to pray but to fix something that is govt. doing/duty not mine i don't have the capability to do that.!
..hoy abnoy,, wla ka ring kwentang tao.. sir max is just giving us updates on the frigate acquisition, projects, etc... kung di mu maintindihan ito, ikaw ang walang kwenta,, lahat ng sina sabi mu na sinasabi ni max na" kesyo bibili nito, bibili niyan",, diyos ko!! read between the lines, sir max is stating his rational opinion,, di gaya nyu na walang sense ang mga opinyon.. bigyan mu nga aq ng isang matinong paliwanag na mali sa max..
Delete@ max...we are talking frigates in this blog( i know they are done already but i will correct you...that you mention is only good for nothing( meaning they are useless when it comes for defenses...are you blind??? Sokol use only for rescue mission and reliefs delivery( we are talking here defenses of the whole Philippines, BRP Tagbanua?what weaponry this BRP have? 6 MPAC...can you count?
ReplyDeleteAnd please!! when it comes to defenses...im talking frigates,helicopter with full armaments..not only 1 cannon and machine gun.
example: vietnam and bangladesh..they are nothing compared to Philippines, but vietnam buy already submarine even 1 atleast fully loaded and 1 is coming..not like philippines all talking, result nothing..
When did I say that frigates are good for nothing and are useless? Reread the entire blog and tell where I said that.
Delete@ max...i agree with you that all u mention are done already but i mention that all your example (SF-260FH,6 MPAC's,BRP Tagbanua,SOKOL ) this is useless and nothing as i said and I never say you said about frigate are good for nothing and useless...
Deleteand please understand my first comment...
i ask you what kind of weaponry BRP Tagbanua have?..(only 1 cannon?) that's why i said this is useless/nothing when it comes for defenses!(when they want to put full armament in BRP Tagbanua??? when other nation missile is above your head already...is to late for that...) you get my point why it is useless? and that is why also i said that they are only good for talking and result nothing...
BRP Tagbanua is not a warship Its a Landing Craft Utility. We also need mine sweepers, logistic ships which do not require to be fully armed. We need all of these in our navy. So these are not useless.. New Frigates will just be the main dish..
DeleteThese purchases are not useless because they serve their purposes, not just as fighting equipment but to service the other needs of a fighting force like logistics, support and training.
DeleteI believe you're comparing armed forces modernization with playing computer games like command and conquer, to the point that you don't understand a thing about how a military force works, and how geopolitics and money affect everything. Better read up more and go for facts and not computer game ideas.
DeleteI get your point Mr. Max. but its not what i meant of (useless) and I'm not talking only BRP Tagbanua or ALcaraZ or some of your examples..
DeleteIn this Era we are talking missile here when it comes to defenses..biological weapon,laser weapon, How can you prevent this? Do you think they will send their men/soldier to be killed before to launch this kind of weapon? I don't think so...they only push a button and we were finish...
( or you may say again theirs an allied for help! but how many missile launch already before they arrived?? that's the question?or you may say again it will not happen.. it will happen that's for sure!)
Command and Conquer is design for an all out war and that's the truth and maybe you are correct that's some ideas i get in this games! why? there is no reality in this game??( but there is only 1 thing you forgot MR. Max..( expect the unexpected) be advance.. (regrets are on the last not in the beginning.).. maybe you forget this also!
War is surprise MR. Max.. Enemy won't wait that your are prepared before they start.! that's is what happening on us( example: the doings of mongoloid Chinese in our own territory..Panatag Shaol( did the DND and Philippine govt can fully protect it? NO NO NO..Sabah Island,? did the Philippines take it or depend it??? NO NO NO..because our GOVT. and DND are incompetent..! and ENEmies knows that..!
And when do you think they can fulfilled their plan to advance Philippine defenses?? 2016-2050
And maybe when the time comes...this frigate things you talking are obsolete already(Philippines govt./DND are late bloomer) or maybe they will buy again...Only 1 cannon at the front...funny right????hahahaha
@ Anonymous
DeleteDon’t criticize what you don’t understand, son. You never walked in that man’s shoes.
Elvis Presley
Criticism, like rain, should be gentle enough to nourish a man’s growth without destroying his roots.
Frank A. Clark
It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; because there is not effort without error and shortcomings; but who does actually strive to do the deed; who knows the great enthusiasm, the great devotion, who spends himself in a worthy cause, who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement and who at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly. So that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat.
Theodore Roosevelt
Before you go and criticize the younger generation, just remember who raised them.
Unknown
The artist doesn’t have time to listen to the critics. The ones who want to be writers read the reviews, the ones who want to write don’t have the time to read reviews.
William Faulkner
Any fool can criticize, condemn, and complain but it takes character and self control to be understanding and forgiving.
Dale Carnegie
When we judge or criticize another person, it says nothing about that person; it merely says something about our own need to be critical.
Unknown
I have yet to find the man, however exalted his station, who did not do better work and put forth greater effort under a spirit of approval than under a spirit of criticism.
Charles Schwab
Criticism is an indirect form of self-boasting.
So which do you think personifies your convictions ...a mouthful of persecution or perhaps a time to think and nurture from our ignorance.
@Anonymous google spell check & grammar check it would be a helpful tool in your struggle to be a comical critic . Sometimes we need people like you to give some humor in this topsy turvy world we live in.
Deletethe media also can play a role here by broadcasting how ill equipped the AFP is versus the Chinese threat. Also highlight the politicians who are against AFP modernization like Sen Biazon himself a former Marine.
ReplyDeletePhilippine Navy Frigate Acquisition Project - An Analysis of the 1st-Stage Bidding Specifications .....
ReplyDeleteThis is the tittle of your blog MR. MAX right?????
granted this project is true!! hehehe
but i know or (predict)..what kind of frigate will arrived MR. MAX..
ONLY 1 CANNON AT THE FRONT ....HHAHAHAHAHA
(STILL ...only talking and defenses are nothing)..
Hi Sir Max, any news on the 2nd pre bidding conference for the two frigates?
ReplyDeleteKorea launches New Stealth Frigate.
ReplyDeletehttp://english.hhi.co.kr/news/view?idx=494
This is actually another Incheon-class frigate for the ROKN.
Deletesir max,any update please?
ReplyDeleteAbsalon class would be the best choice, if budget allowed
ReplyDeleteWhat is the update on this one? Was it scrapped? (I hope not)...was the bidding hampered due to the recent calamity? Really cant wait to see how our first modern frigate would look like..
ReplyDeleteWhy do you think this project was scrapped? As already mentioned in the blog and the commentaries as well, the bid opening was MOVED. I do hope you could read more as there are many important information you can pick up from there.
DeleteMy bad...did not browse carefully..went to the last comment immediately...peace brother..God bless
DeleteSir max good day...just some query relating to this PN project...what was the rationale behind the decision of getting first these frigates instead of the less costly OPVs or ASW corvette which are also in the list of PN desired force mix...I do know that in the current situation of the PN it is more prudent for them to have more assets readily available due to the fact that we have big maritime areas that they need to protect. Hope you can enlighten me on this...thanks.
ReplyDeleteThe PN needs more ships capable of fighting than patrolling. Most if not all of PN's assets are not really for combat although the initial specs of the so-called frigate Is closer to a patrol vessel than a real combatant. Let's see what happens soon.
Delete..tomorrow is bid opening of this frigate acquisition.. hoping that many bidders would submit their documents tomorrow..
ReplyDeleteany update sir?
ReplyDeleteIf there will be updates, it would be posted either in the commentaries, on the blog itself (update section), or on the MaxDefense @ Facebook page.
DeleteIn light of the present situation in the South China sea , the Philippine administration should be more prudent in their decisions regarding the 2 frigates in question . The oppposition are already making their presence and flexing their muscles in these disputed area . There's no need to short change the navy frigate project and contemplate on what type of opposition their about to face. Trying to make mends meet with the current defense budget is wishful thinking . This is a face off between David & Goliath , so if the current administration think & believe that they have a "slingshot" as an equalizer think again,again and again . Until they can have a solid resolution and formula against an impending odds. A good comparison would be how Israel was able to overcome those surmountable challenges during those times. It's time to think out of the box... "OPLAN X"
ReplyDeleteantagal naman po ng frigate program na yan.Puro salita lang naman po ata.
ReplyDeleteThere is a schedule being followed. You just can't decide without setting deadlines. The 1st stage bid opening was completed, so we'll have to see when is the 2nd stage pre-bid conference.
DeleteSeven out of 14 companies submitted bids.
ReplyDeletehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZZW9_U0fd8
Thanks John.
DeleteSino po kaya ang mananalo sa mga nag bid.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.philstar.com/metro/2013/12/07/1265021/4-firms-qualify-p18-b-navy-frigate-bidding?nomobile=1
Too early to say. According to my sources, this is a close fight.
DeleteSir Max, what happened to upgrade of our Hamilton Cutter ( PN Frigates)
ReplyDeletesuch as New Radar, SSM, SAM, ASW suites & other electronic sensors?
Sir any news?
Hi Boy M, still pending. The DND and PN would be using the decision on the new frigates for the final selection of fit-out for the Gregorio del Pilar-class frigates. Example, if the frigate will have an Exocet missile, the GdP-class would probably have the same.
DeleteWow, that is 1 hell of spec for the budget, now i know why it would take alot of time for this frigate project. .
ReplyDeleteIt was in the news that 2nd bidding for the two warship has started yesterday Dec 16, 2014....so let's wait for developement...........soon.
ReplyDeleteSo what is the result of the second bidding?Who is the winner?It takes year for the bidding only.How many years we have to wait till this buildings be delivered?Why not buy missiles now from Israel and put it in pag asa and Batanes islands or in amianan island the northern most island of the philippines and also put coast watch station there. Maybe it takes months only not years while we are waiting for the ships.
ReplyDeleteSo far the 2nd bidding is still in progress as reported. It will takes some more months to evaluate the offers. The PN will have to hire a consultant or experts to assist them in the evaluation and configuration of the FRIGATE system and it's very very confidential/classified. My GUEST by March-April we shall have some news on the development....It's just a guest...
ReplyDeleteOn strategic point of view I do hope the Philippine Navy has considered the real threats on naval warfare in today's and future technology. To mention hypersonic ICBM missile with nuclear warhead, Electromagnetic Pulse threat, stealth 5th generation aircraft and 3rd/4th gen submarine, laser weapons threat, rail guns with hypersonic speed ammunitions, low orbiting satellite with weapons, bombers with precision guided bombs or missiles for land attack with supersonic and hypersonic speed, biological and chemical weapon, cyberwarfare threats, mine warfare threats, and electronic warfare threats for ECCM and other future naval weapon technology. I hope for our frigate an in depth study on capability on software security, sensors. Torpedoes abd missiles defense posture.
ReplyDeleteThese threats, although possible in the next few years, will be difficult to confront by the PN which is not even prepared to confront current miltech. So we do not expect the PN to prepare the frigates against these threats soon. Even major navies are not totally prepared for these threats either.
DeleteThe strategy is a well coordinated information and action for common joint operational picture from sea, air and land for surveillance in the area of electronic warfare, mine warfare, nuclear, biological and chemical warfare. Future threatrs, EMP, hypersonic missiles, faster torpedoes.beyond speed of 50 knots, cyberwarfare, laser and rail gun weapons. Do the TWG has considered these threats to include 5th generation of stealth fighterand 14th generation of submarine with ICBM. Remember the philosophy of other navy a sea denial. They will use long and ICBM range weapon of destruction.against high value target to include.land target the.deterrence to destroy the.command and.control.facility.and.surveillance facility using their.sophisticated low orbiting satellite.for surveillance of our facility.
ReplyDeleteHi Sir Max, can you comment on the latest news about the frigate bidding. Will it affect the bidding schedule and the bidders offers? I hope this will not delay further the procurement of the frigates.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.abs-cbnnews.com/nation/08/09/14/ph-buying-two-frigates-ammo-price-p25-b
Urban Aero Systems is engaged in Aero Boats and Flight simulators, assembly and marketing.
ReplyDeleteHelipad Design
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Sir max, the awarding of winning bidder for new PN frigates takes so long...its now March 2015 and yet no news about this. Any information on your contact?
ReplyDeleteAlso, this might be the reason why the pending transfer of Pohang class corvette from South Korea is not pushing through,if the winner is not Korean company.
Tomorrow is May 1st, 2015 and yet no news update on the winning bidder on the 2 brand new Frigates of Phil Navy......DND/AFP what's up doc...........aribaaa...aribaaa....andale!!!!!!!
ReplyDeleteSir Max, is the project still moving.......? Why is it going very slow????
ReplyDelete