With the bidding for the Philippine Navy's (PN) requirement for 2 Anti-Submarine Warfare Helicopters failing in its first attempt, the Philippines' Department of National Defense (DND) has issued another Invitation to Bid for another attempt. The ABC remains the same at Php 5.405 billion.The pre-bid conference was done last October 7, 2014, in which according to reports, 4 companies attended and showed interest in the project. These are AgustaWestland, PT Dirgantara Indonesia (PTDI), Israel Aircraft Industries (IAI) and a joint venture between Bell Helicopter Asia and Serpenair Group. The absence of Airbus Helicopters is a surprise although MaxDefense sources said that they are now working together with PTDI, which were given local production licenses and marketing rights for some of their helicopter offerings.
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| The AgustaWestland AW-159 still appears to be in the forefront of the PN ASW Helicopter acquisition. |
It is expected that AgustaWestland will be offering again the AW159 Wildcat, PTDI with the Airbus Helicopters AS565MB Panther, and Bell-Serpenair with a navalized Bell 412. IAI does not produce its own helicopters, and is expected to join or work together with a helicopter supplier.
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| The Airbus Helicopter AS565MB Panther, which might be the one offered by PT Dirgantara Indonesia. Photo taken from John Bennett via Air-Britain Photographic Images Collection. |
The bid submission and opening for this second attempt was originally scheduled today, October 21, 2014, but was moved to November 4, 2014 due to some clarifications made by PTDI and AgustaWestland.
Changes from the First Bidding Attempt:
There were actually some major changes in the Technical Specifications of the helicopters that MaxDefense believes is more reasonable than the initial version. Although it looks like this gave the AW159 Wildcat a higher chance of winning, it actually allowed other suppliers a better chance of clinching the deal. The major differences are as follows:
1. Endurance in full ASW configuration with munitions was reduced from 2 hours and 30 minutes to only 2 hours;
2. Range in full ASW configuration with munitions was reduced from 300nm to 240nm;
3. Requirement on number of the aircraft's users was reduced, from country of origin or at least 2 other countries, to country of origin or at least 1 other country;
4. Rigidity of the airframe was further defined to withstand and survive vertical crash impacts of up to 10G;
Other changes in the technical specfications include:
5. Suppliers are now given an option for alternatives on crew station requirements for tactical coordinator (TACCO) and sensor operator (SENSO);
6. Openness to an option for a manual rotor folding system for 4-bladed rotors instead of only accepting automatic folding systems;
7. Specified the included items for the Flight In Air Material (FIAM) gears;
8. The suppliers are given other options for the crew training requirements aside from what was specified.
It's Still a Cat Fight:
In the previous MaxDefense blog entry on this project, a "Cat Fight" between the Wildcat and the Panther was predicted. It certainly is the same for this second bidding attempt. But Bell's offer could be a wildcard although their chances, in MaxDefense's opinion, is slimmer than the 2 cat-named helicopters.
The AW-159 Wildcat still appears to be the point of reference for this bidding, and still has the highest chance of getting the deal, except if PTDI can meet the requirements AND shake the status quo by placing a significantly lower bid than AgustaWestland. MaxDefense believes that Airbus Helicopter's cooperation with PTDI for this project is well timed, with the Indonesian Navy (TNI-AL) recently choosing the AS565 Panther as its next ship-based ASW helicopter. With PTDI supplying the helicopters, costs could be driven down and may give it a chance to overtake the AgustaWestland offer.
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| The Venezuelan Navy operates a few Bell 412 in naval roles, although it is unclear if this version has the capabilities the PN is looking for. |
So what's new here?
Should either the Wildcat or Panther be chosen, there is one major thing common between the 2 helicopters - both are planned to be equipped with the same new generation anti-ship missile systems from European missile system manufacturer MBDA. Enter the FASGW(H) missile series.
FASGW(H) Anti-Ship Missile:
MBDA is currently in the process of introducing a new anti-surface missiles to replace the ageing Sea Skua with the British Royal Navy (RN) and the AS.15TT designed to be fired from the the Eurocopter (now Airbus Helicopters) Panther and Dauphin naval helicopters. The missile system was designated as the Future Anti Surface Guided Weapon (FASGW) or Sea Venom for the British, and as the Anti-Nevire Legere (ANL) with the French. It was designed to be carried by the RN's Lynx and Wildcat helicopters, and the FN's Panther helicopters, and further development may allow it to be fired from other platforms, including other helicopters models, and possibly from surface ships. So far it was also confirmed that the NH90 helicopter can be equipped with the missile system.
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| The MBDA FASGW / ANL, together with the smaller Thales FASGWL / LMM. |
With both the Wildcat and the Panther vying for the Philippine Navy requirement, the chances of the PN having this missile in its future inventory is very high. The ASW Helicopter's technical specifications require for a missile with weight not more than 150 kilograms, a warhead not less than 20 kilograms, a range not less than 20 kilometers, and equipped with a guidance system. In comparison, the Sea Venom/ANL weighs around 110 kilograms, a warhead at the 30 kilogram class, and a range said to exceed 25 kilometers. With not much alternatives, the FASGW(H) is certainly a perfect fit.
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| A computer illustration of what an AW-159 Wildcat may look like with the FASGW(H) Sea Venom missiles. |
Although the FASGW(H) / Sea Venom / ANL is no Exocet or Harpoon missile in terms of size and range, it is still a very capable missile that gives versatility to naval helicopters, providing anti-surface warfare capabilities in shorter ranges against smaller targets. It gives the helicopter enough punch to disable warships up to corvette size, and sink smaller ships and fast boats at stand-off distances.
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| The ANL is expected to be used by the French Navy for their AS565 Panther naval helicopters, and should the PN get the same helicopters for its ASW Helicopter requirement, it may also get the ANL missile. Photo taken from the Defenseindustrydaily website. |
The only problem is...
The FASGW(H) / Sea Venom / ANL is expected to enter the RN service by January 2018 after encountering several delays during its development program. So it is expected that even if the PN becomes the first customer outside UK & France, the first missiles may arrive only around mid-2018. By that time, it is expected that the ASW helicopters are already in PN service. But being an ASW platform, the PN is probably giving more emphasis to ASW training and duties once the helicopters arrive, thus the urgency is more on having them armed with torpedoes instead of anti-surface missiles like the FASGW(H).
Previously MaxDefense discussed the Sea Skua as a possible missile for the AW-159 Wildcat, but since this is a model that is not in production anymore, it is not expected to enter the PN service, probably even as a second-hand defense article.
Conclusion:
Delays in the procurement may happen due to circumstances that come along with the entire acquisition program, like what was experienced by the ASW Helicopter and Frigate acquisition programs. Nonetheless, the PN is still expected to gain from this acquisition, and it is expected that they will be acquiring more ASW helicopters as the fleet acquire more surface combatants with helicopter deck and hangar. Loosely following the Philippine Navy Desired Force Mix white paper, it might be possible for the PN to get more of whatever is chosen on this bidding as more funds become available in the second phase of the AFP Modernization Program slated from 2018-2022.
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| A computer generated image of a Sea Venom missile launched by an AW-159 Wildcat naval helicopter. Photo taken from navyrecognition website. |
Aside from the helicopters, it is expected that the PN will acquire more of the FASGW(H) missiles proportionate to the number of helicopters or assets capable of launching them. Aside from the air launched version, MaxDefense sources confirmed that there were offers from MBDA for a ship-launched version that is being developed, although this would probably be for a medium term goal as part of the next phase of the AFP Modernization.
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UPDATES:
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October 25, 2014:
The DND released its newest supplementary bid bulleting regarding the ASW Helicopter acquisition project, with reference no. DND/AFP-PN-R-ASHAP-1014-03 dated October 23, 2014. The content clarifies several clauses from the DND Technical Specifications, and also answering the request for information (RFI) previously submitted by both AgustaWestland and PT Dirgantara Indonesia.
AgustaWestland got clarifications regarding the certification of the helicopter from aviation classification societies, the Tactical Data Exchange and Recording System, and documentation and administrative requirements.
PTDI's queries are more complex, although by the queries they provided appears that they might be having problems meeting the basic requirements of the project. Their offer appears to have difficulties meeting both anti-submarine warfare (ASW) and anti-surface warfare (AShW) capabilities. Also, the DND provided answers to their request on amendments on the delivery; terminologies regarding the product being used by the country of origin or at least 2 other countries; the requirement for an airframe hour meter to monitor the helicopter's airframe life; TACCO & SENSO operator configuration; GPS & VOR integration; weapons launcher requirement; and issues regarding training and maintenance work.
From the queries provided, it appears that AgustaWestland did offer the AW-159 Wildcat, while PTDI appears to be offering a small helicopter design, probably the AS565 Panther as discussed by MaxDefense in this blog entry. But following PTDI's concerns, there might be some limitations in their Panther model being offered as compared to the French-made version AS565MB Panther due to the possible absence of a capability to combine ASW & AShW missions. This would now be dependent on how Airbus Helicopters and PTDI can merge themselves to provide a complying offer.
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November 5, 2014:
MaxDefense sources said that only AgustaWestland submitted a qualified bid for the PN's Anti-Submarine Helicopter Acquisition (ASHA) project, which is the formal name of the PN's ASW Helicopter procurement program. Only 2 groups submitted a bid, the other being PT Dirgantara Indonesia, which failed the documentation requirements to prove that they were able to participate in a similar supply requirement. AgustaWestland is said to have offered their new AW-159 Wildcat helicopter, while it is still unconfirmed if PTDI did offer an Indonesian-made AS565 Panther as a partner of Airbus Helicopters (formerly Eurocopter).
MaxDefense believes that the Indonesian acquisition of ASW helicopters has not yet reached a status wherein PTDI was able to deliver a product to the TNI-AL (Indonesian Navy). This failed PTDI to conform to such requirement. According to open sources, PTDI was given until November 7, 2014 to file for a Motion for Reconsideration.
This is a two-stage bidding, so it is expected that the DND won't immediately go through a post bid qualification stage, instead, after the DND Bids and Awards Committee (BAC) finishes their evaluation of the entire bid document from AgustaWestland, the DND may further discuss and form a more comprehensive technical specifications which is more specific to the PN's requirements. With only 1 bidder if the DND does not recondsider PTDI's bid, then it is expected that the process will be faster as they only need to consider AgustaWestland's capability.
MaxDefense sources said that only AgustaWestland submitted a qualified bid for the PN's Anti-Submarine Helicopter Acquisition (ASHA) project, which is the formal name of the PN's ASW Helicopter procurement program. Only 2 groups submitted a bid, the other being PT Dirgantara Indonesia, which failed the documentation requirements to prove that they were able to participate in a similar supply requirement. AgustaWestland is said to have offered their new AW-159 Wildcat helicopter, while it is still unconfirmed if PTDI did offer an Indonesian-made AS565 Panther as a partner of Airbus Helicopters (formerly Eurocopter).
MaxDefense believes that the Indonesian acquisition of ASW helicopters has not yet reached a status wherein PTDI was able to deliver a product to the TNI-AL (Indonesian Navy). This failed PTDI to conform to such requirement. According to open sources, PTDI was given until November 7, 2014 to file for a Motion for Reconsideration.
This is a two-stage bidding, so it is expected that the DND won't immediately go through a post bid qualification stage, instead, after the DND Bids and Awards Committee (BAC) finishes their evaluation of the entire bid document from AgustaWestland, the DND may further discuss and form a more comprehensive technical specifications which is more specific to the PN's requirements. With only 1 bidder if the DND does not recondsider PTDI's bid, then it is expected that the process will be faster as they only need to consider AgustaWestland's capability.
Fantastic news! I'm really hyped up with the ASW Chopper project of the DND. Unlike the Frigate program which would relatively be a modest acquisition because we all know the DND would be cutting corners and would probably end up with a light frigate, these ASW choppers on the other hand would be the top of the line acquisitions which actually gives us the advantage or at least, be at par with ASW choppers from China.
ReplyDeleteThe AW109, the FA-50s.. these ASW helicopters.. and hopefully the Gripens. Our skies would look better with these.
PNOY has really done wonders as for the country and he deserves a mention every time something like this comes up.
- Neo
Max thank u for this insipid info!of topic, yet cn u update us of south korean navy vesel they said they wl donate to ph?im fast losing hope bout the bddng of our new frigate!maybe pinas is really destined to acquire ukay ukay even its armaments are 2ndhand!! What can u say vp binay?sana ma invite m dn kmi mkta namin ung airconditione piggery m sa btangas!!being an mnsa grad,vp binay u shod be the first to support our afp modrnization! Thank u sir max!
ReplyDeleteif binay wins as president of this republic i have doubt's hell be agressive nor atleast on par with pinoy when it comes to modernizing the military.. afterall this binay guy i think is a china guy so i don't think he wants to ruffle the feather of those chicoms by buying military assets for the pnas military.. sigh..
Deletehow 'bout you calm down, take a deep breath and see the bigger picture. patience is key here, friendo. biddings take time and delays are the norm.
Deleteas for Binay, i just hope that asshole doesn't run for presidency in 2016, same goes for his idiot daughter in the Senate.
from dnd source helo my friend, dont you worry pohang class corvette is now on the process of deactivation from the south korean navy and it was the "PCC 758 Gyeongju". After a brief decommissioning ceremony the ship will be scheduled for refurbishment before being transferred to philippine navy. no to binay..
DeleteHow about our ssv sir max what's the latest?
ReplyDeletealready ordered and under construction in PT PAL, the last time i heard. 2 of them, if i remember correctly.
Deletei wonder if sir Max would make an article about the possible sensors and weapons loadout of the incoming SSVs/LPDs.
No construction happening yet, although it is expected that PT PAL will start on the first ship soon.
DeleteSir max anong design ang napili nila para sa ssv? May pic po kayo?
DeleteNo photo yet of the exact design, but it would closely resemble the Makassar or Banjarsamin-class LPD of the Indonesian Navy.
Deleteheres the model ship of new philippine navy SSV http://s3.zetaboards.com/Defense_Philippines/topic/836305/71/
Deletewow that's big 2 helipads. so these LPD be gonna the flagships of PN navy? just asking..
Deleteas of now we cannot speculate it all defends upon the decision of the next phil navy commander and the next president.
DeleteMr. Max...Since the Phil. cannot afford to buy an aircraft carrier, is it feasible to just built a floating flight deck pullled by a Roll On/Roll Off ship where at least a squadron of naval fighter aircraft stored in it's cargo bay can be launched unto the floating flight deck. Just a new concept or idea I thought of.
DeleteThe PAF can't even buy their MRF, the PN can't buy enough surface combatants. How could the PN even have their naval fighters?
DeleteI mean the feasibility and not the funding. For funding, the government can sell some of it's GOCCs to private industry, improve the BIR tax collection system, minimize customs smuggling, increase sin taxes, use PAGCOR profits, minimize government corruption, etc. Our government is not taking the China threat seriously. Maybe if China starts invading and occupying Reed Bank and Pag-Asa Island, it will push our gov't. to produce more funding for our AFP.
DeleteFeasibility and funding goes hand-in-hand. If you have the budget to acquire naval fighters, then it means you should have the budget to acquire a proper aircraft carrying vessel plus its support systems, escorts, and everything included in operating such asset.
Deleteso these future choppers can be armed with futuristic missiles......sounds cool oh 1 thing sir max will these choppers be equipped with flare launchers for countering ship launched SAM's?
ReplyDeletethanks and more power sir max
btw any updates on the frigates? hoping to know soon
-ace
Great news for ph yeah, but can the PN move fast for all of this acquisition? puro nalang bidding nakaka inip! kahit nanga sana second hand ang bilhin basta gawin agad! really PNoy done a great great job for our AFP two thumbs-up for for that...
ReplyDeleteSir Max give us update naman for Frigate acquisition, the 10 coastguard ship na i dodonate ng Japan and the Pohang class na i dodonate naman ng S.Korea navy plsss.. thanks sir max okz ka talaga lagi ko inaabangan blog mo..
mcpadz
The ten (10) Phil Coast Guard patrol boats (known as Multi-Role Response Vessel) are to be built in Japan and are not donations. The Japanese provided preferential soft loans but with a counterpart fund from the Phil govt. It's was under bidding stage and exclusively only for Japanese suppliers.
Deletehttp://www.philstar.com/business/2014/08/12/1356457/4-japanese-firms-vie-dotc-project
To add to what 49r already said, the bidding is still ongoing, so none of the ships are under construction yet.
DeleteAs for the Pohang, nothing much on updates for this.
The reason for the SSV design has to be studied very well because there is a need to consider the future requirements for weapons, sensors, soft kill and hard kill defense of the ship to ensure that the ship agility and stability will not be compromised to include its electrical and power system.
Delete10 patrol boats were soft loan from japan. Before they were announcing 12. Two of which were the shiretoko class of 1000 ton. What happen to the shireteko. Pinalulundag lang tayo sa patag ng mga taga afp. Puros yabang ang ibinabalita
DeleteSa mga politikong matitino (kung meron pa) sana naman ay suportahan ninyo ng husto ang modernasyon ng AFP kawawa naman ang bansa natin masyado ng napabayaan,tayo napo ang pinaka kawawang bansa sa asya.maging maka bayan naman po sana kayo kahit minsan lang.Mas malakas at masigasig pa ang mga tuta ng tsina dito sa bansa para makamtan nila ang kanilang mga pansariling adhikain sa tulong ng kanilang patron na tsina.
ReplyDeletethe Sea Venom AShM sure looks like a suitable candidate for our light anti-ship missile requirements. i can see them being suitable for our Jacinto-class patrol corvettes too. but 2018 is still too far off and the Sea Skua is basically obsolete now.
ReplyDeletein the meantime, i guess torpedoes would have to do.
Are these PLANNED ASW helicopters will be placed on the PLANNED future acquisition of new frigates?
ReplyDeleteYes.
DeleteI do wonder sir Max.. are there land based ASW choppers? I understand that ASW choppers work in tandem with ships, but can a chopper working without a ship do what it is assigned to do? Given the range and endurance of these coming ASWs, they'll be capable of guarding waters not really that far off from the shore, or am I wrong because I just couldn't grasp the distance of a 240 nautical mile stretch?
Delete- Neo
Making them land based will restrict them to inshore duties, and reduce their operating range due to an immobile base. Usually land based ASW platforms will be those maritime patrol aircraft with ASW capabilities similar to what the PaF intends to acquire under its Long Range Patrol Aircraft acquisition project.
DeleteI really hope that the next president fund the 2nd phase more.
ReplyDeleteSir Max ganito helicopter din ba ang ilagagay sa mga SSV?
ReplyDeleteNo. SSV requires helicopters that can transport troops and carry loads and supplies. The PN has plans to acquire transport helicopters for use with the SSV.
DeleteI'm assuming the PN will assign escort for our SSVs. Maybe not on the on set because we severely lack ships on patrol duty and assigning some of them as escorts will only lessen the number of ships guarding our EEZ.
DeleteBut let's face it, enemy subs could be freely roaming our waters, not just the the area near the WPS. And an SSV with loads and loads of soldiers and equipment is a high-value target. We may not worry about a torpedo hitting our SSV during peace time, but if tensions rise, I think it's better to have at least one escort with submarine detection capabilities.
Max is correct these ASW helicopters won't be assigned to the SSVs, but it could be possible later on that a frigate with an ASW helicopter will be assigned as an escort from time to time.
- Neo
Do you have any idea for the helicopter model the Navy is eyeing for the SSVs?
DeleteBaka naman sa sobrang choosy ng dnd this anti sub and frigate acquisition will end up to nothing. So much delay baka mapikon na ang suopliers
ReplyDeleteThe new schedule was further delayed at the request of some of the suppliers.
DeleteMas makikinabang ang bayan kung ang lampas sa P5 bilyong pera ay ibili na lang ng dalawang 50m missile corvettes na may ASW capabilities. At lagyan na lang ang mga OPV del Pilars ng mga ASW na USV's at UUV's. Ang problema sa Navy natin gaya ng gaya sa mga US and allies na navies, na mayayaman. Gayahin niyo mga Viking navies kung papano humanting ng mga submarines. Maigi pa sipain na yang VFA sa Amerikano. Mag VFA na lang tayo sa mga Vikings - Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Finland, mas mabuti pa.
ReplyDeleteASW is a mission that is achieved by different platforms performing tasks of different layers. Ships with ASW capabilities are limited by the area they can cover, which is why the upcoming ASW capable light frigates the PN plans to acquire will have these ASW helicopters. The helicopters greatly increases the ASW capabilities of the frigates threefold.
DeleteAs for VFA with the Scandinavians, for what? They have nothing to do with the issues we are having in this side of the world.
DeleteThe murder of Jeffrey / Jennifer Laude is not a strong reason for the Philippines to junk its VFA & EDCA with the US. But it is a reason which the Philippines can use to push for reforms in the system.
Sir Max,
ReplyDeletePlease update us with these items:
1. Delivery date of the remaining 17 Huey Helicopters.
2. Delivery date of used 100+ M113A.
3. Status of Israel's radar system.
4. Delivery date of (5) new French patrol boats.
5. Status of new Subic Naval base construction works.
6. Status of expansion works at Ulugan Bay Naval Base.
7. Winning bid for (6) CAS planes.
Pinoy-NYC
from dnd source hello my friend, we will update you with regards to our new equipments and weapons but it will only be made public once we receive and put all of them in our safe storage. the only thing I can tell you is the next batch of Remington rifle and the new rpg 7 are coming but we will not tell you when. bell 412 first batch, 2 aw 109 for the navy, first batch aw 109 light attack helicopter first batch (next year).
DeleteJust hoping if Sir Max has the latest info with these (7) items.
DeletePinoy -NYC
@ Anonymous.
ReplyDeleteWHY SCRAPPED VFA? the issue is not about VFA, IT"S ABOUT KILLING BECAUSE OF NOT TELLING THE TRUTH.. I personally believe that the US marine should be under Philippine custody and put him in jail FOR LIFE! because KILLING a person is unacceptable. But about scrapping VFA. why should the whole country should suffer the consequences of what a SINGLE person did? instead of SCRAPPING, it would be more doable to amend the part's of the VFA, specially about the custody for those who committed heinous crimes here in the Philippines. we should have the full custody and imprison here in the Philippines. I don't give a damn SH*T for these leftist people. they keep on asking to scrap the VFA and asked the the Americans that they should leave this country. at yet they do not see the good side of it. don't they forget that the US help us during the aftermath of the typhoon Yolanda. where are those leftist people na yan? did they help?.. instead these "A**H*LES" try to break into the Quezon city hall to ask the court to free the Tiamson's (leaders of NPA).. what the "WTF" NPA's killed more Filipino soldier in countless battles compared to what this abusive US marine did.. and one thing.. are these leftist will defense the country? if we don't have an ally? I don't think so..
Hiblood
friend easy lang...na delliver muna ang messages sa mga bwisit na leftist na yan.
Delete(In reaction to the "VFA na lang tayo sa mga Vikings" -- Anonymous October 22, 2014 at 11:21 PM)
ReplyDeletehello max, come to think of it. is it smaller the ships used by Sweden to hunt for submarines?. Why is the Phil Navy going big if their are work around with limited budget?. Or any work around with existing Phil situation more expensive?
http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/10/20/swedish-hunt-for-russian-submarine-sparked-by-interception-of-encrypted-message-newspaper-claims/
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/sweden/11175832/Sweden-widens-search-for-Russian-submarine.html
The Swedish Navy have corvettes that can accommodate SAM. Their naval doctrine may be different from the Phil Navy but I think the Swedes are doing a good job in guarding against the Russian Navy intrusions for years now with smaller ships.
Regards!. -fmo
fmo, the Swedish need not venture to large deep seas and oceans as the Philippine Navy. Small ships like those used by the Swedish Navy won't be enough for continuous operations in the West Philippine Sea and Pacific Ocean. They have a different type of seas to handle.
DeleteWhy would you expect the PN to hunt for subs far offshore in the WPS and Pacific Ocean ? Intrusions from enemy subs would far more lkely be near where our bases and naval assets are located. Who knows - there may be mini subs right now operating n the shallow waters between the Visayan Islands. Just looking at the map - it is not clear to me why the PN would venture far offshore. There are no islands to defend more than 200 miles from the Philippine coastline.
DeleteI think you don't understand the reason why the PH and other countries are fighting for their EEZ. The PN is not only defending its territorial waters and islands. You won't like to fight inside or close to your home islands. You try to fight as distant from your homelands as possible. Although there are possibilities that foreign submarines are inside our waters, you don't limit your capabilities there. Remember that what the PN are gettig are just part of the initial phase. We will be seeing a larger PN in the future that is now trying to learn from the initial items it would be getting. Ever wonder why the PF-16 is now venturing out to sea as far as Northern Australia?
Deletealso, consider the shoreline we got... its one of the world's longest shorelne. if we don't have range and endurance, you deny yourself capability to stay on patrol longer and limiting effectiveness.
Deleteif your point is about the seeming independent and self-reliant naval ship building technology they got. I'm all for it. They got this laminate non-magnetic material on their visby and future boat. I'm not sure how durable it is in our seas but its a good technology to learn.
Are you serious - you want the PN to fight as far offshore as possible ? You would lose MRF air cover and ASW coverage from LRPA. One or even ten ASW heli is not enough - your ships would be sitting ducks from the enemy's MRF's and subs.Fighting far offshore would require a blue water navy and aircraft carriers - which only the US have. Not even the PLA Navy can afford to fight a few thousand miles from Hainan Island because they only have one old cranky aircraft carrier.
DeleteThe WPS is not the Pacific Ocean. It's still near your backyard. You don't invite the enemy to your porch in a fight.
DeleteAside from fighting, your navy's main duty is to keep the country's sovereignty intact and your interests protected. A small boat can't do that in the deep sea. Fishing boats are one thing, they are not designed for prolonged military operations offshore.
There are advantages of having a fleet of small fast movers that are missile equipped, but they also have disadvantages. Unfortunately the territorial conditions and external threats that the Philippines have is not in the shallow waters but there in the edge of our EEZ far in the open sea.
The fishermen going to Bajo de Masinloc use small outrigger bancas and they stay there up to a week. Surely the PCE's (and FPB's) of the navy can take care of the West Philippine Sea and Pacific Ocean. These PCE ships were used during WW2 even to escort convoys across the Atlantic Ocean. There's no reason for ships bigger than the Humabon except for the ones use for logistics. The farthest that these warships have to go is the KIG with numerous shallows that disadvantages even just large corvettes. Also in terms of money, we can afford to buy more smaller ships than larger ships, covering a wider area. Copying the US Navy doctrine of large ships will lead to our downfall, we don't need to go to faroff places to project our superiority. A lot of Pohangs will do just fine to track all those Chinese and other subs. Just like the Vikings, specially the Norwegians. The P5 billion can take in maybe 5 Pohangs.
ReplyDeleteLet's build a strong defense so we won't have the VFA and EDCA. It's warrior time.
Lapu-lapu
Lapu lapu, there is a saying in shipbuilding: steel is cheap. Increasing the ship's size does not greatly increase the ship's costs in terms of warships. It is the electronics, electrical and mechanical systems that make up the most of the ship's costs, including sensors and weapons systems.
DeleteVFA AND EDCA for me are very important, reality is we are small and weak country. On other hand, U.S. is big and strong. I suggest to Google, United States bases from Middle East, NATO countries, and Asia Pacific. It might surprises you (Mr. Lapu-Lapu) that these countries has strong Armed Forces. Yet, they opted to have Americans in their territories.
DeleteOur country can pursue both strong relations with the Americans and modernize the Armed Forces.
serge
I agree. For Iron and Air is cheap. When you enlarge a ship, the increase in cost is disproportionately minimal. Most of the cost is on the system installed and the technology being used (to cover R&D cost).
DeleteFrom Naval-Technology.com:
ReplyDeleteAW159 Lynx Wildcat
"The helicopter integrates AESA radar, active dipping sonar, electro-optical device, ESM and defence aids suite making it one of the best ASW helicopter in the world."
I'd be okay with either Panther or Lynx, but I'd like the Lynx to win. Since we don't have any subs, might as well get the best counter-sub asset available.
- Neo
Submarines are not actually the best counter-sub assets. In a multi-dimension environment, you use every asset available in your inventory, and every element you can use. The ASW helicopter is just a small part of a bigger ASW environment which includes surface ships, MPA, underwater systems, etc.
DeleteThanks for the reply Max.
DeleteOn your latest update, you mentioned there are issues with PTDI's version of the Panther, that it can not combine ASW and ASuW functions. By "combine", do you mean the capability to fire a missle and a torpedo on one mission?.. Like for example, it detects a ship, fires a FASGWH, then minutes later fires a Mako at a sub.
- Neo
Not necessarily on 1 mission. But the PN's basic requirement is for the helicopters to be able to perform ASW as a primary, and as a AShW platform in a secondary but equally important role.
DeleteI see.. I'm assuming the Wild Cat can carry a combo of missiles and torpedoes in one mission, although most likely -- the load out is going to be either.
DeleteThat's a critical PN requirement. If PTDI's Panther can not do that, it better come up with a "significantly" lower price. Personally, I would like our ASWs to have ASuW capabilities. Our air assets are so few that they should be as versatile as possible.
- Neo
Hi Max. Steel may be cheap when building but when you carry around that weight for 30 years or more, it gets expensive in fuel, maintenance, etc. The trend in electronics and weapons is to lighter weights and volumes, so no need to go past Humabon size for our naval defense needs. The advantage of our 'moat defense' is that we don't go far out, and it's more cost effective to just line our shores with resupply points and go corvettes/FPB/coastal sub.
ReplyDeleteI'm sorry for the mindset of some people here who still think our country as small and weak. It's our minds that are weak and small, filled with myths from our colonized history. Look at the strengths we have and utilize these, and reboot your weak mind.
There are even still cold war relics here who thinks and sees 'commies / leftists' when one pushes Filpino interests. Maybe its the order of their foreign masters who feel threathened.
Lapu-lapu
There are different types of ships used to carry out different types of missions. Of course you don't always acquire big ships, as there are correct applications in terms of size and capability. As for patrolling the EEZ and far flung territories and interests, offshore patrol vessels would be enough. The PN and PCG have plans to acquire these type of vessels which are specifically designed to do such jobs.
DeleteThere is something missing on the softkill capability of the ASW wherein there is a provisions about chaffs and flares but without early warning systems against SAM with radar, IR and LASER guidance as a threats towards the ASW helicopter during engagement. I hope will open the mind of the group for this project. Is necessary to put a softkill defense with passive capability to analyze and when to deploy the softkill defense.
ReplyDeleteA more comprehensive and specific version of the Technical Specifications will be used for the 2nd stage of the bidding. What is provided on the current oneare the basic requirements.
Deletesome youngsters think that bigger, faster, more powerful, numbers, etc... are all there is to have to win something. tactics and strategy are also more important. and I don't mean just military options. diplomacy, opinions, judicial, propaganda, public support, etc... are also part of the solutions. if it was all just bigger, faster, stronger, mumbers... then, romans would have not conquered half the world. hanibal would have not been a great general. Spain would have not colonized Phils. that's why there are grunts... and there are officers. there's a distinction to the level of awareness and insights. there staffs and managers. there are pawns and heads
ReplyDeleteThere's also tech - which the Romans and the Spanish, during their time as super powers, benefit greatly.
DeleteSo, the Chinese military is not only bigger, faster and superior in numbers - they also have the better guns.
The Spanish and Romans used religion. It was not primarily military conquest. Another technique used by Romans are education and heir hostaging
DeleteYou dont have to be a graduate of Harvard or Westpoint to choose between the CAT And PANTHER. What the DND must do is to compare, get the pros and cons. Tapos, Decide, then approve. Dalawa na lang pagpipilian PINAGTATAGAL PA. Nakakainis!
ReplyDeletethere are requirements to be followed and met. how would you go about getting the job done, eh?
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