Blogger's note: This blog entry was originally posted on December 12, 2013.
An updated blog entry will be released later on. - MaxDefense
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The 1st stage of the bidding process for the acquisition of frigates for the Philippine Navy commenced on December 4, 2013. Out of the 14 entities that bought the bid documents, only 7 submitted their bids, and as follows (see links as well):
1. Daewoo Shipbuilding & Marine Engineering Co. Ltd. (South Korea);
2. Garden Reach Shipbuilders & Engineers Ltd. (India)
3. Hyundai Heavy Industries (South Korea);
4. Navantia - SEPI (Spain);
5. STX France SA (France);
6. STX Offshore & Shipbuilding Co. Ltd. (South Korea);
7. ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems (Germany);
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| DSME's FFX Batch 2 frigate. Photo taken from Ambassador @ Military Photos forum. |
Unfortunately, only 4 of the 7 submitted bids were deemed qualified by the DND's Bids and Awards Committee (BAC), with the 3 companies said to have been unqualified were India's Garden Reach S&E, STX France, and Germany's ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems. Deficiencies were found on the submitted bids of the said entities, but the DND allowed them to file a motion for reconsideration. The deadline for the said MFR was not publicly known, but it would definitely be soon due to the urgency of the project. MaxDefense hopes that these 3 companies could hurdle the said deficiencies as it's believed that their offers can improve the competitiveness of the acquisition project.
(Update: of the 3 disqualified bidders, 2 were reconsidered by the DND-BAC. These are Garden Reach S&E of India, and STX France.)
In addition, there were also 7 other entities that bought the bid documents from the DND but did not submit a bid. The following entities are:
1. Damen Shipyards Group (Netherlands);
2. DCNS (France)
3. Fincantieri S.p.A. (Italy);
4. Magazon Dock - Pipavav Ltd. (India);
5. Piriou Naval Services (France);
6. Rouvia Yachts / Rouvia Defense Inc. (Philippines)
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| Too bad that most European shipbuilders like Damen Schelde did not submit a bid, so we will not see the SIGMA family, like the offer to Indonesia (above) as among the candidates. |
With the latest updates on the competitors, MaxDefense could further improve its earlier analysis and assessment on the possible designs that will be offered for the said project. It appears that MaxDefense was able to hit some of the companies, but also missed on several. Among those absent on the list of companies that bought the bid documents as compared to the earlier MaxDefense analysis are the following: Huntington Ingalls Shipbuilding and Lockheed Martin from the United States, and Austal from Australia. Another expected bidder that was not in the earlier MaxDefense listing is Singapore's ST Marine Ltd., and Korea's Hanjin Heavy Industries, which has a shipyard in Subic Bay. It is also surprising to see previously "unknowns" like France's Piriou Naval Services and Rouvia Defense from the Philippines, as these 2 companies are not know to have built frigates or similar-sized warships before. Rouvia Defense is actually a sister company or subsidiary of Rouvia Yachts based in Bataan, which specializes in luxury yachts and boats for foreign markets.
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| In the absence of ST Marine of Singapore, we won't be seeing their New Generation Frigate (right) being offered to the Philippine Navy. |
Recap of What the PN is actually looking for:
Previously MaxDefense discussed what the Philippine Navy is actually looking for, and was actually repeated several times in several blogs related to frigates and this particular project. A brief summary of those commentaries are the following:
- Previous DND announcements have pointed that the ship may have a displacement of at least 2,000 tons, a length greater than 100 meters (as discussed HERE),
- The PN may opt to use similar equipment to what it already has, like the 76mm Oto Melara gun, the Mk. 38 Mod. 2 or DS30 Seahawk stabilized closed in gun mounts, and others weapons, sensors and electronic systems (as discussed HERE);
- The PN, with its Desired Force Mix whitepaper, has a requirement for 6 Anti-Aircraft Warfare (AAW) frigates, and 12 Anti-Submarine Warfare (ASW) corvettes.
- Although the specifications is similar to a previous Request For Information (RFI) submitted by the US Navy's Naval Sea Systems Command for a possible PN OPV requirement, it appears that this project is a more capable design than the said OPV. Thus this is not just a "glorified OPV" so to say (as discussed HERE);
and finally:
- With the specifications and budget allocated for this specific acquisition project, it appears that this is closer to the ASW corvette than the AAW frigate (as discussed HERE);
Updated Analysis on the Bidders and Products:
A revised possible offers from the qualified bidders is now possible, and MaxDefense believes that these are the following products:
1. Daewoo Shipbuilding & Marine Engineering Co. Ltd. (DSME)
DSME is the world's 2nd largest shipbuilder and was also one of the participants in the Ulsan-class frigate project of the ROKN in the 1980s. They are also known for their recent frigate contracts with the Royal Thai Navy and Republic of Korea Navy with its DW-3000H and FFX-2 designs, respectively.
For the Philippine Navy, it is unexpected for DSME to offer these designs exactly as they are due to costs and technical requirements. MaxDefense believes that they will be offering at least 1 of 2 possible designs: a derivative of their DW-2500 frigate design which was originally offered to a neighboring navy before, or a reduced capability variant of the new and larger FFX Batch 2 frigate.
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| DSME officials disucssing with the Philippine Navy top brass early this year to discuss matters pertaining to the PN's modernization and asset acquisition plans, which probably included the frigate project. Photo taken from the Philippine Navy's official Facebook page. |
a. DW-2500H derivative - this is a design DSME reportedly offered to Thailand some years ago, and has a full load displacement of around 2,500 tons. It is actually an upsized derivative of the Bangladeshi Navy's Bangabandhu-class frigate which was based on the smaller DW-2000H design. The DW-2500H has a CODAD propulsion and can reach speeds of up to 28 knots and can carry a medium-sized naval helicopter. Based on the photo below, it appears that the ship's length is a little more than 100 meters, and is armed with a 76mm main gun, 2 8-cell VLS in the B-position, 2 x quad AShM launchers and 2 x triple torpedo tube launchers at midships, and 2 x medium caliber secondary guns, probably 40mm guns from Hyundai WIA acting as a CIWS system. MaxDefense believes that this is the closest ship that DSME has to offer to the PN, but may not have enough growth margin for future development.
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| The DW-2500 was offered to Thailand before choosing the newer and larger KDX-II derivative design. It is the closest design that DSME may offer according to the PN requirements and budget. Photo taken from thaifighterclub.org. |
* Possible changes for the PN may include the absence of the 2 x 8-cell VLS in favor of a simpler, cheaper multiple VSHORAD missle system launcher, reduction of the number of SSM launchers, and the replacement of the 40mm CIWS system with a smaller PN-specific model although the chances of it being retained is also high.
b. FFX Batch 2 derivative - if the PN is luckier, DSME may also offer the new FFX-2 design with reduced capability, only retaining the hull but only meeting the minimum requirements with regards to the sensors, weapons, and EW systems. Unlike the older DW-2500H light frigate design, the new FFX-2 design is physically larger, heavier, has a sleeker stealthy design, and has a larger future growth margin. MaxDefense believes that this can still be possibly offered by DSME since the PN has put emphasis on the future requirements which may need a large growth margin allowance for additional weapons and sensory systems as the PN tries to catch-up in the future. The PN may be pointing to a larger hull, ready to accept future upgrades with suffering from space shortage and weight considerations.
* Possible items for replacement include the LIG Nex1 3D surveillance radar with a 2D variant, the 127mm main gun to a 76mm as specified either the 76mm Super Rapid from Oto Melara or a similar design from Hyundai WIA; the use of a automated 4-shot missile launcher for VSHORAD missile system similar to LIG Nex1's Chiron MMS instead of the KVLS system; removal of the ROKN-specified Mk. 15 Phalanx CIWS and replaced by a system similar to the Mk. 38 Mod. 2; and reduction of anti-ship missile launchers to only 4 tubes.
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| A FFX Batch II hull but with reduced weapons and sensors capability can also be offered by DSME, as it is physically larger than the DW-2000 frigate design, and will be able to take in the initial requirements and still have weight and space allowances for future upgrades. Photo taken from Ambassador @ Military Photos.net forum. |
Special mention:
DW-2000H derivative - this is actually a late 1990s design that was constantly updated by DSME for future projects. It is actually another derivative of the late 1970s Ulsan-class frigate design of the ROKN. Although it eerily has almost everything the PN is looking for, MaxDefense sources say that it doesn't have the capability to carry a 10-ton naval helicopter and cannot meet the range and endurance requirements as specified by the PN.
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| The BNS Bangabandhu (F-25), the most modern frigate of the Bangladesh Navy, is actually based on the DW-2000 light frigate design. It lacks some of the requirements of the PN so it may not be offered |
2. Hyundai Heavy Industries Co. Ltd. (HHI)
The world's largest shipbuilder, and is very familiar to MaxDefense readers due to its early involvement in the PN Frigate acquisition project when they reportedly offered the HDF-3000 design (more commonly known as the FFX-1 Incheon-class) at the same time as when the Italians are on talks with the DND for the Maestrale-class frigates. MaxDefense sources earlier pointed out that this was actually the major template of the PN's budget and technical specifications for its frigate program: the PN found out that it can actually buy a new frigate with such limited budget. But just in case, HHI may also offer a cheaper alternative, depending on what they believe fit the requirement and budget.
a. HDF-3000 derivative - this is actually the model name of HHI's FFX-1 offering that ultimately became the Incheon-class frigate. It actually fits exactly on what the PN is looking for, but a reduced capability derivative may be offered instead to be within budget. The only problem with this design is in its growth margin allowances and space availability: it may be unable to accept a VLS system due to its tight space, unless if the PN opt to go for a RAM system in the future. HHI may also make modifications on its helicopter carrying capacity which requires it to take in a 10-ton model.
* Possible systems for replacement are the 127mm gun to a 76mm rapid fire main gun, the RAM system to a 4-shot VSHORAD system, the ROKN-specified Mk. 15 Phalanx with a PN-specified stabilized weapon mount, reduction of number of SSM tubes and missiles, and the downgrade of the radar system instead of using the LIG Nex1 3D surveillance radar system.
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| The HDF-3000 design was used by the ROKN for its FFX-1 Incheon-class frigate. According to sources, this was actually the template for the PN's own frigate technical specifications. Photo taken from Navyrecognition.com c/o Jager. |
b. HDF-2000 derivative - unknown to many, HHI is still currently offering a smaller frigate design known as the HDF-2000, which is smaller, probably cheaper, and is a derivative of the ROKN's Ulsan-class frigate (which was actually built by several shipbuilders, including HHI and DSME). Physically it looks closer to the old Ulsan-class than DSME's DW-2000H design, down from the high position of the bridge, the position of the midship funnel, and the replacement of the aft with a hangar and helideck instead of more weapons stations. Speculatively it may have the same dimensions features and performance as the old Ulsan-class, such as the use of the CODOG propulsion and speeds of up to 33 knots, while also being more automated to reduce crew. Due to its similarity to DSME's DW-2000H design, it is not confirmed by MaxDefense if the ship is capable of carrying the required helicopter tonnage as well as the space requirements.
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| The HDF-2000 looks strikingly similar to the old ROKN Ulsan-class frigate (shown above), with an updated and smoother design, and replacement of the aft weapons stations with a hangar and helicopter deck. It is physically smaller than the HDF-3000 and may be a cheaper alternative if HHI finds the HDF-3000 disadvantageous for them. |
3. Navantia - Sociedad Estatal de Participaciones Industriales (Navantia-SEPI)
Spain's largest and foremost naval shipbuilders is the only non-Korean bidder to break into the qualified list. Navantia is famous with their export of frigates, aircraft carriers and amphibious assault ships to Australia, Thailand and Norway. There have been earlier reports that they have offered the Avante 1800 to the Philippine Navy for its other naval requirements (probably as corvettes or offshore patrol vessels), but missed on Navantia's offer of an Avente 2200 derivative for its light frigate requirements.
a. Avante 2200 derivative - this is the closest model from the Navantia's Avante line of patrol and combatant vessels that may suit the PN's requirements. Compared to the smaller Aante 1800 (discussed HERE previously), it has a larger dimension and heavier tonnage, has more spaces, and can meet the range and endurance requirements of the PN. A derivative of the Avante 2200 was also sold to the Venezuelan Navy a few years back.
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| Navantia's Avante 2200 is the most probable design they can offer to the PN. The photo above shows the Venezuelan derivative, and the PN version may include heavier weapons and sensors systems. Photo taken from Navantia website. |
It is possible that Navantia would make use of European weapons and sensors system, which may probably include missile systems from MBDA (probably Exocet Blk. 2 and Mistral VSHORAD missile systems), MU90 lightweight torpedoes, 76mm Oto Melara Super Rapid main gun, and mostly radar and sensors from either Thales or Selex.
4. STX Offshore & Shipbuilding Co. Ltd. (STX)
STX is the 4th largest shipbuilding company in the world, as is actually the mother company of STX France. They may share the same designs and it is possible that they will actually offer a similar design, with STX offering more Korean systems in its offer. Previously unexpected by MaxDefense to join due to their limited participation in defense projects, but may gain from the vast experiences of defense shipbuilding of STX France being the builder of several warships for the French Navy.
MaxDefense is actually blur on what STX may offer since they have not been in the frigate business for some time, although it be possible for them to offer a design derived from HHI's HDF-3000 being the announced builders for the 4th and 5th units of the FFX Batch 1 Incheon-class frigates for the ROKN.
a. HHI HDF-3000 derivative - being one of the appointed builders of the FFX Batch 1 Incheon-class frigate for the ROKN, it is highly possible that STX may be allowed to use the base design of the ship from HHI, with some design modifications coming from STX. It may also have the same systems as the HDF-3000 offer from HHI although it is possible that they will try to undertake HHI in some way or another.
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| A Hyundai HDF-3000 derived frigate from STX? Unimaginable, but possible. STX is the builder of the 4th and 5th units of the FFX Batch 1 Incheon-class frigates, whose design was from HHI. It may be possible for STX to use the design with some modifications. |
If this pushes through, expect a very similar fit-out of weapons and sensors system as HHI's offer, mostly Korean-made systems.
b. KCG 3,000-ton Patrol Vessel derivative - STX was awarded a contract to build two 3,000-ton offshore patrol vessel for the Korean Coast Guard, which is actually a design shared with one of its competitor HHI. This design, with further design changes to meet naval requirements, may be used by the shipbuilder for its frigate offer to the Philippine Navy.
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| HHI built this specific unit, but STX was also awarded to build 2 units of the same 3,000-ton patrol vessel design. A navalized derivative based on this design may be offered by STX. Photo taken from Korea Coast Guard website. |
Although the chances of the 3 other bidders are slim, it would be best to also discuss here what they may be offering the Philippine Navy if the Motion for Reconsideration they will file/filed is approved:
5. Garden Reach Shipbuilders & Engineers Ltd. (GRSE)
Although the name sounds more farm than sea, GSRE is actually one of India's more experienced naval shipbuilders and has experience in building frigate-sized vessels for the Indian Navy.
a. Kamorta-class large corvette derivative - this is currently the newest design from GSRE that is within the specified requirements of the PN. Actually considered as an ASW corvette for the Indian Navy, the base design can actually be modified to suit the PN needs. The original Kamorta-class uses a mixture of Indian, Russian and Israeli systems, although it is possible for GSRE to modify their design and remove Russian and even Indian systems from their offer*. At around 109 meters long and a displacement of 2,500 tons, this corvette is actually on the same size category as its frigate competitors from Korea and Europe. A recent grounding during sea trials may also not be helpful to GSRE as it was found that there were mechanical problems encountered that caused the accident.
* Russian weapons systems like the AK-630M CIWS, RBU-6000 anti-submarine rocket launcher, and Klub AShM systems can be replaced by similar systems from Israel like the Typhoon stabilized gun and Gabriel 5 - Advanced Naval Attack Missile. The Barak air defense missile system from Israel may be retained. Radars, sonar, EW, CMS, and other electronic systems from India may also be replaced by either Israeli systems from IAI-Elta or European systems from Thales.
6. STX France SA
The European sub-company of Korea's STX Offshore & Shipbuilding, based in France is one of Europe's foremost shipbuilders. Like its Korean mother company, STX France has its share of building frigate-sized naval vessels although it is possible that they would be offering a similar design as their Korean counterparts.
7. ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems GmbH
The German shipbuilder ThyssenKrupp is well known for its MEKO series of vessels that has been updated for almost 30 years to suit different requirements of navies around the world. The MEKO series is one of the most successful naval products and new products have been unveiled to make them competitive in an ever-changing world market.
a. Blohm+Voss MEKO A100 corvette series - a smaller derivative of the more expensive MEKO A200 frigate series, this might be the best offer ThyssenKrupp may offer. It may definitely be made to fit the PN's budget, at the same time meet its requirements. It is only around 98 meters long, range and endurance that meet the PN requirement, and has a displacement of around 2,400 tons although these can all be adjusted if necessary. It has the capability to handle 1 or even 2 10-ton helicopters, and can be fitted with the weapon and sensors systems specified by the PN. The Royal Malaysian Navy actually uses the MEKO A100 design as its Kedah-class patrol vessels which are actually neutered corvettes.
It is possible that like most of its customers, ThyssenKrupp may offer the ship together with systems from MBDA and Thales, although the shipbuilder may also use other systems depending on the requirement.
Associated Ship Systems:
Other than the ships themselves, the weapons and sensors systems can also be analyzed based on the shipbuilders. Most notable is the presence of all Korean companies that bought the bid documents which will probably be using Korean or French-made systems based on their previous products.
LIG Nex1
This new Korean company is actually in the forefront of the Korean electronic and missile system technology, and has a complete range of products to offer. Their products would likely be included in most of the Korean frigate offers which may include but not limited on the following products:
- SLQ-300(V) Sonata EW Suite;
- Next Generation Milsatcom Systems;
- Ulsan-I class 3D Surveillance Radar;
- Ulsan-I class Hull Mounted Sonar;
- Chiron VSHORAD and Chiron MLS missile system;
- SSM-700K C-Star (Haesun) anti-ship missile system;
- Blue Shark lightweight torpedo system;
- Torpedo Accoustic Countermeasures
Samsung Thales - its close association with defense systems manufacturer Thales has helped them come up with their own systems that are currently in used in most new Korean naval vessels, and might be included in the ship offers to the Philippines, including:
- Naval Shield Integrated Combat Management System (NS-ICMS);
- Short Range Tracking Radar systems.
Hyundai WIA - a part of the Hyundai conglomerate, this Korean machinery and tool manufacturer makes naval gun products under license from Oto Melara and Thales Nederland. The following naval guns may be offered as an alternative to the original European models:
- 76mm naval gun;
- 40mm naval gun;
- Goalkeeper CIWS.
Besides these Korean companies, MaxDefense believes that European defense products may also be bundled as well, especially for the Navantia offer.
Thales Group may offer their TACTICOS Combat Management System and Smart-S Mk.2 3D surveillance radar system, Mirador and Sting EO Mk. 2 tracking radar system, Vigile advanced naval ESM system, the CAPTAS series (probably CAPTAS-2) of variable towed low frequency sonar. The Kingklip medium frequency hull mounted sonar may not be fit for offer as the PN is looking for a low-frequency sonar.
MBDA Systems may also provide missile systems for the frigates, which may include the MM40 Exocet Blk. 2 or 3 AShM system, the Mistral VSHORAD missile system and associated multiple launching system, and the VL-MICA air defense system if the PN can still afford.
Italian naval gun system manufacturer Oto Melara may probably be approached to supply the 76mm Super Rapid gun in case the PN rejects a possible offer of the Hyundai WIA version.
There is also a strong chance that Israeli systems, like those offered by Israel Aircraft Industries, IAI-Elta and Elbit Systems, may also be used as an option. There were previous reports that Israeli companies may tie-up with Korean shipbuilders for an offer to the PN under this project, and this may be the case should the PN opt to use non-Korean systems. These may include the ELM-series of naval radar systems, ELK-series communications and signal systems, Gabriel 5 and Barak missile series, and the Typhoon stabilized gun system which is where the Mk. 38 Mod. 2 system is based.
American and British defense manufacturers may also be offered but may have difficulty in getting a contract due to cost issues. Boeing's Harpoon Block II AShM system might be a strong contender due to its strong choice for the other PN frigate that will be installed with AShM systems - the Gregorio del Pilar-class. Raytheon's Rolling Airframe Missile (RAM) system may also be retained with the HDF-3000 frigate design. If gas turbine engines will be considered for the designs, General Electric's LM2500 and Rolls-Royce's MT30 marine turbines will likely be the only choices.
For sure, there will be comments on this blog's commentary portion that will ask MaxDefense's opinion on which design would win. To be honest, MaxDefense doesn't know yet. The fight is close enough as all parties are putting in their best foot forward. This would only get better if some unconfirmed information MaxDefense got recently that the purchase of ammunition would be separated from the project is true and free up some more for the frigate itself. Not only that, there are already confirmed information that the DND and PN are already discussing the possibility of allocating funds for a follow-up 3rd frigate, together with additional capabilities to the entire ship class.
With all these possibilities coming up, we are looking at an exciting frigate program. MaxDefense will be posting more updates on this very important acquisition project as it shows major movements in the coming weeks.
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UPDATES:
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May 16, 2014:
DND confirmed early this month that 2 more bidders were qualified to submit their proposals for the PN frigate acquisition project. These are Garden Reach S&E of India and STX France SA. They were given only until this month to provide the details of their proposal to the PN and its hired consultants.
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August 10, 2014:
The DND formally allowed the release of information regarding changes on the bidding to the media. Philstar was the first to report that the DND decided to divide the Php 18 billion Frigate Acquisition project into 2 parts: the Frigate acquisition at Php 15.5 billion, and the weapons systems for Php 2.5 billion.
These changes free the bidders of the burden to negotiate the procurement of the weapons systems, which should have been the responsibility of the end user's government. Foreign governments especially those of the American and Western powers, need congressional / parliament approval on the transfer of weapons systems, especially offensive and advanced weapons systems like anti-ship and anti-aircraft missiles as it may affect the balance of power in the region. The source's government may also look on other issues, like human rights standing and violations, payment schemes, trade issues, lobbying powers, relations with neighboring countries and its effects, and others.
There is a possibility that the bidders themselves asked for the changes since they cannot acquire the weapons systems on behalf of the Philippine government.
This would be further discussed in a separate MaxDefense blog entry due to its strong effects on the current bidding.
5. Garden Reach Shipbuilders & Engineers Ltd. (GRSE)
Although the name sounds more farm than sea, GSRE is actually one of India's more experienced naval shipbuilders and has experience in building frigate-sized vessels for the Indian Navy.
a. Kamorta-class large corvette derivative - this is currently the newest design from GSRE that is within the specified requirements of the PN. Actually considered as an ASW corvette for the Indian Navy, the base design can actually be modified to suit the PN needs. The original Kamorta-class uses a mixture of Indian, Russian and Israeli systems, although it is possible for GSRE to modify their design and remove Russian and even Indian systems from their offer*. At around 109 meters long and a displacement of 2,500 tons, this corvette is actually on the same size category as its frigate competitors from Korea and Europe. A recent grounding during sea trials may also not be helpful to GSRE as it was found that there were mechanical problems encountered that caused the accident.
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| A scale model of the Kamorta-class ASW corvette. GSRE reportedly offered a derivative of this design, which may probably not include Russian and several Indian-made systems. Photo taken from thaifighterclub forums. |
* Russian weapons systems like the AK-630M CIWS, RBU-6000 anti-submarine rocket launcher, and Klub AShM systems can be replaced by similar systems from Israel like the Typhoon stabilized gun and Gabriel 5 - Advanced Naval Attack Missile. The Barak air defense missile system from Israel may be retained. Radars, sonar, EW, CMS, and other electronic systems from India may also be replaced by either Israeli systems from IAI-Elta or European systems from Thales.
6. STX France SA
The European sub-company of Korea's STX Offshore & Shipbuilding, based in France is one of Europe's foremost shipbuilders. Like its Korean mother company, STX France has its share of building frigate-sized naval vessels although it is possible that they would be offering a similar design as their Korean counterparts.
7. ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems GmbH
The German shipbuilder ThyssenKrupp is well known for its MEKO series of vessels that has been updated for almost 30 years to suit different requirements of navies around the world. The MEKO series is one of the most successful naval products and new products have been unveiled to make them competitive in an ever-changing world market.
a. Blohm+Voss MEKO A100 corvette series - a smaller derivative of the more expensive MEKO A200 frigate series, this might be the best offer ThyssenKrupp may offer. It may definitely be made to fit the PN's budget, at the same time meet its requirements. It is only around 98 meters long, range and endurance that meet the PN requirement, and has a displacement of around 2,400 tons although these can all be adjusted if necessary. It has the capability to handle 1 or even 2 10-ton helicopters, and can be fitted with the weapon and sensors systems specified by the PN. The Royal Malaysian Navy actually uses the MEKO A100 design as its Kedah-class patrol vessels which are actually neutered corvettes.
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| A rendering of the Blohm+Voss MEKO A100 corvette with full equipment. Photo taken from ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems website. |
It is possible that like most of its customers, ThyssenKrupp may offer the ship together with systems from MBDA and Thales, although the shipbuilder may also use other systems depending on the requirement.
Associated Ship Systems:
Other than the ships themselves, the weapons and sensors systems can also be analyzed based on the shipbuilders. Most notable is the presence of all Korean companies that bought the bid documents which will probably be using Korean or French-made systems based on their previous products.
LIG Nex1
This new Korean company is actually in the forefront of the Korean electronic and missile system technology, and has a complete range of products to offer. Their products would likely be included in most of the Korean frigate offers which may include but not limited on the following products:
- SLQ-300(V) Sonata EW Suite;
- Next Generation Milsatcom Systems;
- Ulsan-I class 3D Surveillance Radar;
- Ulsan-I class Hull Mounted Sonar;
- Chiron VSHORAD and Chiron MLS missile system;
- SSM-700K C-Star (Haesun) anti-ship missile system;
- Blue Shark lightweight torpedo system;
- Torpedo Accoustic Countermeasures
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| LIG Nex1's Chiron VSHORAD missile system in multiple launcher platform may be offered by the Koreans for the anti-aircraft missile requirement. This might be the minimum offer. Photo taken from LIG Nex1's website. |
Samsung Thales - its close association with defense systems manufacturer Thales has helped them come up with their own systems that are currently in used in most new Korean naval vessels, and might be included in the ship offers to the Philippines, including:
- Naval Shield Integrated Combat Management System (NS-ICMS);
- Short Range Tracking Radar systems.
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| Samsung Thales' Naval Shield CMS may be offered with the HHI and DSME offers, although other manufacturers like Thales may have the chance to snatch the deal if it can. Photo taken from Samsung Thales website. |
Hyundai WIA - a part of the Hyundai conglomerate, this Korean machinery and tool manufacturer makes naval gun products under license from Oto Melara and Thales Nederland. The following naval guns may be offered as an alternative to the original European models:
- 76mm naval gun;
- 40mm naval gun;
- Goalkeeper CIWS.
Besides these Korean companies, MaxDefense believes that European defense products may also be bundled as well, especially for the Navantia offer.
Thales Group may offer their TACTICOS Combat Management System and Smart-S Mk.2 3D surveillance radar system, Mirador and Sting EO Mk. 2 tracking radar system, Vigile advanced naval ESM system, the CAPTAS series (probably CAPTAS-2) of variable towed low frequency sonar. The Kingklip medium frequency hull mounted sonar may not be fit for offer as the PN is looking for a low-frequency sonar.
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| The Thales CAPTAS series of low frequency towed array sonars may be offered as part of the sonar system requirements of the PN. Photo taken from Thales Group website. |
MBDA Systems may also provide missile systems for the frigates, which may include the MM40 Exocet Blk. 2 or 3 AShM system, the Mistral VSHORAD missile system and associated multiple launching system, and the VL-MICA air defense system if the PN can still afford.
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| The Exocet series of AShM systems may be among those included in one of the offers to the PN. Photo taken from MBDA website. |
Italian naval gun system manufacturer Oto Melara may probably be approached to supply the 76mm Super Rapid gun in case the PN rejects a possible offer of the Hyundai WIA version.
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| Oto Melara's 76mm Super Rapid gun may be the gun of choice by the PN but may find competition from its Korean version from Hyundai WIA. |
There is also a strong chance that Israeli systems, like those offered by Israel Aircraft Industries, IAI-Elta and Elbit Systems, may also be used as an option. There were previous reports that Israeli companies may tie-up with Korean shipbuilders for an offer to the PN under this project, and this may be the case should the PN opt to use non-Korean systems. These may include the ELM-series of naval radar systems, ELK-series communications and signal systems, Gabriel 5 and Barak missile series, and the Typhoon stabilized gun system which is where the Mk. 38 Mod. 2 system is based.
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| Israel's Barak-1 short range air defense missile system also fits the bill of the PN's requirement, and even exceeds the requirement. |
American and British defense manufacturers may also be offered but may have difficulty in getting a contract due to cost issues. Boeing's Harpoon Block II AShM system might be a strong contender due to its strong choice for the other PN frigate that will be installed with AShM systems - the Gregorio del Pilar-class. Raytheon's Rolling Airframe Missile (RAM) system may also be retained with the HDF-3000 frigate design. If gas turbine engines will be considered for the designs, General Electric's LM2500 and Rolls-Royce's MT30 marine turbines will likely be the only choices.
For sure, there will be comments on this blog's commentary portion that will ask MaxDefense's opinion on which design would win. To be honest, MaxDefense doesn't know yet. The fight is close enough as all parties are putting in their best foot forward. This would only get better if some unconfirmed information MaxDefense got recently that the purchase of ammunition would be separated from the project is true and free up some more for the frigate itself. Not only that, there are already confirmed information that the DND and PN are already discussing the possibility of allocating funds for a follow-up 3rd frigate, together with additional capabilities to the entire ship class.
With all these possibilities coming up, we are looking at an exciting frigate program. MaxDefense will be posting more updates on this very important acquisition project as it shows major movements in the coming weeks.
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UPDATES:
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May 16, 2014:
DND confirmed early this month that 2 more bidders were qualified to submit their proposals for the PN frigate acquisition project. These are Garden Reach S&E of India and STX France SA. They were given only until this month to provide the details of their proposal to the PN and its hired consultants.
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August 10, 2014:
The DND formally allowed the release of information regarding changes on the bidding to the media. Philstar was the first to report that the DND decided to divide the Php 18 billion Frigate Acquisition project into 2 parts: the Frigate acquisition at Php 15.5 billion, and the weapons systems for Php 2.5 billion.
These changes free the bidders of the burden to negotiate the procurement of the weapons systems, which should have been the responsibility of the end user's government. Foreign governments especially those of the American and Western powers, need congressional / parliament approval on the transfer of weapons systems, especially offensive and advanced weapons systems like anti-ship and anti-aircraft missiles as it may affect the balance of power in the region. The source's government may also look on other issues, like human rights standing and violations, payment schemes, trade issues, lobbying powers, relations with neighboring countries and its effects, and others.
There is a possibility that the bidders themselves asked for the changes since they cannot acquire the weapons systems on behalf of the Philippine government.
This would be further discussed in a separate MaxDefense blog entry due to its strong effects on the current bidding.
so the DND give us a big surprise huh?, at first i think it was an OPV that's why i like the DND to go back to italy for maestrale, but when these offers comes, it really amaze me., my bet? to incheons :)
ReplyDeleteHow about Navantia's Avante 2200
DeleteIt was covered on this blog. Please read.
DeleteIt is better to have a corvette for the mean time because of budget.constrain. let us be realistic enough because maintenance comes our.suatainable economy
DeleteEven our president stated that it needs PHP4.3T as seed money to sustain the AFP and.PNP pension. To you Sir.Max what do you think?
My own point of view.
Delete1. Do the platform is stealth with heavy tonnage displacement for future weapon systems upgrade because stealthy design with heavy tonnage and longer than 100 meter therefore for combat systems, sensors and weapon systems there would be no enough budget for offense capability.
2. To invest on the platform for future growth without enough defense capability or deterrent capability is tantamount a ship only for maritime domain awareness. How about the cost of ILS of this two Corvettes or OPV I mention tgis because we have a tight budget radar system with 3D system medium range is almost $60M to $70M a piece. Let us be practical.
3. If really we had a tight budget we must designed the ship with the capability to defend wherein the threar now in warfare is stealthy submarine, Anti-ship missiles with stealthy and long range capability, and ballistic missiles. Therefore it is better to have a corvette design for anti submarine warfare with credible defense capability and equipped
our two WHEC with AShM long
range with credible defense. Because the ship movement is always combination of assets with different capability to support each other because in reality we cannot afford to have AAW frigate with multirole capability because the doctrines of warfare in open sea is anti access/area denial.
4. I hope our leaders in DND, AFP and PN will have to really come up what is good ship design for PhP18B that it can defend itself.
3. My own humble suggestion
Navy may accept reduce tonnage in exchange for high quality weapon system and sensors
ReplyDeleteReducing the tonnage may affect the overall performance of the ship. It would not be best to sacrifice tonnage as it can't be adjusted anymore once its built. Weapons and sensors can come and go anytime the navy decides to replace them with another system, as they are not fixed items. So your proposal is not really a good idea.
DeleteModular forget it once weapons and sensors installed it will be there for very long time say 20 to 40 years.i dont see economy made huge jump in coming years. So upgrade is not going to happen till that ship retire. Anyway upgrade is financial and logistic headache thats why ph can afford only light multirole jet fa-50 with dry weight of 6,470 kg against mideum miltirole jet like f-18 with dry weight of 10,400 kg.
Deleteyour comparing ships to jets. just plain wrong in my opinion.. The reason for FA-50 is to train the pilots so that it would be not be hard for them to learn to fly your so called f-18 jets.. it's like your buying a dreamliner and hiring a pilot who doesn't even know how to fly small planes..
Deletebetter go with the bigger tonnage to give enough room for upgrades for more sophisticated, much heavier longer range future weapons. don't expect that we will only use that for 30 years, for all we know we are still using ships older than our parents. so if we are going to use it forever, it should be ready to take in future upgrades and you need room for that.
Deletei hope its the very best 2 frigates for the PN.
ReplyDeleteactually we need more frigates, i hope this will only be the beginning for our navy. hope to see a very capable AFP in 10 to 15 years time.
DeleteAll I can say is winner takes all. Whoever is the juicy offer will bag P18bil and possible more to come from the same builder.
ReplyDeletethis a battle between avante 2200 vs the hyundai hdf 3000
ReplyDeleteReplacing capable armaments with cheap and questionable weapons would risk the lives of our sailors.By doing this is not a wise decision in effort to meet the budget.In the future if disaster occur this thing will be divulged and lead to investigation as to why this allow to happen ?.
ReplyDeleteIn this analysis, we forget the MAZAGON DOCK LIMITED one of the premier shipyard in India, Mazagon Dock Limited (MDL) is India’s prime shipyard. It manufactures warships and submarines for the Indian Navy, as well as offshore platforms and associated support vessels for offshore oil drilling. It also builds tankers, cargo bulk carriers and passenger ships and ferries.
ReplyDeleteThe shipyards of MDL were established in the 18th century. These yards have over two centuries of experience in shipbuilding. Ownership of the yards passed through various entities, including the P&O Lines and the British India Steam Navigation Company. Eventually, Mazagon Dock Limited was registered as a public company in 1934. The shipyard was nationalized in 1960, and is now a PSU of the Government of India.
This shipyard still active over 200 years operation.
Just like DCNS, Damen and the rest, Mazagon Docks did not submit a bid, so there's no need to analyze their possible offer.
Deletethe question is how reliable those korean made sensors and weapons are? most of it are copies or licensed build from european defense manufacturers so are we going to opt for korean systems should it narrowed more to only korean bidders? is it possible that our government can still augment the approved budget for this project? my thinking is simply get the weapons to the original designers which i think more reliable and from either israel, thales, MBDA. should a korean bidder wins hope we demand european or israel made systems for the hull.
ReplyDeleteAugmentation of budget is 1 thing, adding the budget to the current bid is another. MaxDefense isnt sure if the PN can add the ABC value when the 1st stage is already over. Somebody who's familiar with bidding processes here?
Deletewell they can always cancel the bidding and restart it with revised requirements and increased budget the bidders will still remain ,money talks, and at the same time will at least increase the capability of the ship although i have a feeling that afp strategy is as you said the ship should at least with large margin for future upgrade so buy ship with reduced capability and upgrade later.
DeleteTime is the other enemy. You cancel this, you delay the entire thing again.
Deleteim not an expert on bidding process, but as i understand once the bidding process start specially when its reach the 1st stage its not possible, unless they scrapped the program and starts a new.. i always witness bidding process the last is MMDA program for flood control.im not a bidder im just a close in security of a VIP. Maybe next time i can ask my boss attorney hehehe
DeleteThe ABC never changes even in the two stage process. Only the terms and conditions or quantity and specifications can be changed if the ABC is found insufficient. If there is a bid failure then they can go negotiated procurement or shopping or other means as stated http://www.gppb.gov.ph/downloadables/forms/GPM%20-%20Vol.2.pdf - Manuel, hope this helps.
DeleteI agree to the first sentence of the opinion above. My understanding and based on my experience on government bidding process, there is no need to delay the project, it is always possible for the government to issue an addendum even if the bidding process has started if all the participating parties agreed, bidders included for the revision of the specifications, extension of submission of bids for maybe a few days, increase of the stipulated budget, etc.. etc. However, in the side of the AFP (government), the AFP to be able to issue such an addendum, when the bidding has started is subject to the approval of the commander in chief and not just by the BAC and concurred by the supreme court. This of course would also depend on the general requirements on the bid documents issued and the scope of authority of the BAC.
DeleteMax is it like PN is planning to get a guided missile frigate? I just wanna know.
ReplyDeletesir max who is the best choice all of them, meaning capability and financially? right now the peso is 44 against us dollars, end of this year is 45 against peso. for me korean company is the best choice. because the korean government is willing to help our country to modernized the afp in the near future. not only frigate or even fighter jet or even tanks. the korean is very serious to help us.
ReplyDeleteHi Ian, they are willing to help but of course we must be willing to pay. The peso's depreciation is a problem since the government allocates budget in pesos. The lower the value of the peso, the less dollars the government has for the acquisition projects.
Deletethey demand 50+% down payment and philippine laws cannot.
Deletecorrect sir ed, our laws and korean laws is far from different, but according to president aquino last month we can fixed all this things. according to dnd. once the document has been sign. our first fa50 will deliver in the first quarter of 2014 and next phase of delivery quarter but only two units of fa50. makukuh natin yan. i m very optimistic.
DeleteIs there possible for the Korea ship can integrated Fa-50 weapon system?
ReplyDeleteYou mean data linking? Or do you mean another thing?
DeleteIf navantia submits with 4-cell VLS, I would bet that they will win. Incheon has a problem. Limited AAW (short range) with RAM. Can't install VLS in the future, no space.
ReplyDeletesir max, after this project. what is the next big project by DND. what i mean another big tickets. done is fa50 by the korean and frigate is now under bidding by the 4 shipbuilding. and according to defense department way back 2011, DND planning of more than 178 tickets for afp.
ReplyDeleteMore frigates, perhaps? MRF? These are MaxDefense's predictions. But they may be probably be included in the next phase post 2016.
Deleteso we will wait until next phase of 2016. wow its to late, if everybody watching a television regarding what happen in east asia, japan and china. there is something happen in the future. this 2 biggest country in asia in terms in economy and military power. the philippines is one of the affected in terms of brink of war. for me we need to speed up and more treaty with other country.
DeleteMaxDefense is verifying the possibility of the Aquino government to increase the 2013-2017 Modernization Budget starting next year. If that happens, we can see additional items in the list, or increase in numbers of what are currently planned.
DeleteTime is of the essence. Just read the nytime's article about LST sierra madre (sharks & minnows) in the spratlys. China thinks we will give it up eventually without a fight. We need this badly. How many years would it take from bidding to delivery? The guys at sierra madre dont stand a chance.
ReplyDeletewell i always agree that we need to fast track things concerning external threats but i was inform in some defense forums that military hardware procurement is so complicated that lots to be talk like laws of philippines and laws of the opposite and so much more on about requirements, technical support etc but the big bottleneck is always political will and willingness of our government to pour more money for our very weak defense
DeleteYou cannot just put a total package capability to one platform remember in naval warfare is a taskforce concept of operation. The design of one platform is for certain application
DeleteFor offensive and the other capability for defense posture becauase of the limited budget.
i thought i can expect israel to join this bidding by offering SA'AR V Corvette/Frigate.
ReplyDeleteSadly, Huntington Inggals and Stone of David (woith contacts to Israel Shipyards) did not submit a bid. Probably they didn't find the project profitable or they can't keep up with the schedule or requirements? Only them knows the answer.
Deletesince SA'AR V was built in US Shipyards i can guess why the cost is high that eclipsed the affordability of israel made sensors and weapons.
DeleteAdd to that the non-inclusion of India's bid, which would probably be the one offering Israeli systems instead of using Indian or Russian made systems.
DeleteI hope this one push through and hope it would not be a failed bidding... For the Armaments and other hardware issues, given the limited budget and the downgrade requirements of the PN.. I hope the winner would offer much better specs... A more powerful radar and sonar(towed), RAM for anti-air instead of VSHORAD.. 1 x quad Anti-ship missile(ok for now).. Oto malara super rapid(ok)... Torpedos, decoy systems, and the one that they did not consider, a Close-in weapons system for anti-missile...
ReplyDeleteI don't know much about VSHORAD googling it tells you a manpad type short-range missile so i guess VSHORAD is best design to shoot helicopters and not 100% against fast attack aircraft and ashm at the same time but then im agree with our limited budget we must opt for larger ship with considerable space for future upgrade like(vls systems, ciws) that is considered expensive for us in the meantime so initially its okay if downgraded weapons and upgrade later.
DeleteMax, is the Mistral can be used as a missile based CIWS??
DeleteHi Allen. Against incoming AShM, it may not be enough, but it can be used. It will also depend on the FCR system.
DeleteIf the PN can't afford a VLS then why not go for RAM (from Ratheon perhaps)? VSHORAD just limits the air warfare capability of this frigates considering that the PN is opting for AAW frigates its desired force mix. It would also be better to maintain a 3D radar rather than 2D. One quad AShM launchers is good. And there should be a decent CIWS (Phalanx) for anti-missile and anti-aircraft defense, considering also that many countries have cruise missile capability. This, I think, is what the PN and the Gov't should and must have for a light frigate especially if there would be more possible orders other than the 2.
ReplyDeleteBoth RAM Block 2 and CAMM can be launched from the stand-alone version of the Lockheed Martin ExLS aka "VLS in a box". Easily integrated into any warship in any combination of cells.
Deletehttp://www.lockheedmartin.com/us/mst/features/120514-exls-allows-navies-to-have-it-their-way.html
http://www.asianmilitaryreview.com/successful-camm-missile-launch-mbda-lockheed-martins-support/
I think the PN dont want a gun based CIWS system like the Phalanx/Dardo/Goalkeeper.. They want a Missile Based CIWS like the Sadral/Tetral/Simbad/RIM 116(RAM)... Maybe like the Sigma class... Thats why they want a VSHORAD(very short range air defense) to counter missiles and low flying aircrafts.. I think this frigate is for Anti submarine warfare...
Deletesafe to assume i feel we will end up getting 4 shot VSHORAD and quadruple anti ship missile reading max blog :-)
ReplyDeleteAnything can still happen. The blog was just an analysis and is not 100% accurate.
DeleteIts still 2013 and i think this purchase would go down to about 5 to 10 years. Brp alcaraz is 2nd hand. It took almost 3 years to get here. I want this to push through but experience tells us otherwise. By 2020 the specs that we are discussing here will be obsolete. The gen 4.5 fa50 will be replaced by gen 5 and 5.5 fighters and stealth frigates will be the norm.
ReplyDeleteThe specified systems are still applicable by that time, and there is a requirement that the ships should be futureproof and have enough space to accept further upgrades and modernization. I don't think it would take 10 years to complete this project especially if the PN would use a design that is already in production like the FFX-1, or is about to be produced like the FFX-2.
Deletehow great is this ship compare to china? if we fight for spratly
ReplyDeleteit can responds to an attack and defend it self ...
DeleteHi Max, is it possible for PN to operate a Hyunmoo 3 cruise missile if the incheon won the contract?
ReplyDeleteFor what? These are offensive weapons against ground targets. It would be more logical to fill in anti-ship requirements first.
DeleteIraq order Fa-50. Do you think there is a budget problem or other circumstance may nakelam ng budget? Are they willing to continue or search somewhere else?
ReplyDeleteThe budget is not an issue, it is there, and the price is already accepted by both sides. Its more of the usual terms and conditions on payment, warranty and parts availability that is normal in a transaction.
Deletesir max, why we need bidding, why not govt to govt like the fa50?
ReplyDeleteThat's what I also cannot understand. For compliance perhaps? Or to prove that the AFP and DND are not corrupt as perceived?
Deletei am not satisfied with the system of our Government to procure this kind of Military hardware and it so slow in contrast with what President Pnoy promise a year ago. I have come to think of this that this will be push through and approve approximately one more year I guess. Is anyone agree on this? Lem1
ReplyDeletePirou naval services just purchased the p-400 patrol craft la tapageuse it will renovate it then sell it to a foreign navy. Will the pcg purchase it?
ReplyDeletei thought they are going for Japan for ship of PCG
Deletemax i'd like to share this from manglermuldoon. video starts around 2:30.
ReplyDeletehttp://armedservices.granicus.com/MediaPlayer.php?view_id=2&clip_id=278
I have always look forward at the end of the day to browse MaxDefense and find out the latest updates on the AFP modernization programs . Although I must say it's been an arduous task and an impelling journey for those people involve in this affair considering all the hindrances and controversial episodes that they have undergone not even including that worst calamity that ever hit the Philippines on how it took its toll on this campaign . Between the LIFT and the frigate program it has drag its feet forever . I don't see the sense of urgency among the bureaucrats about how these equipments would change the tide that looms over our horizon. The service men knows what they need to get the job done unfortunately the people who needs to decide are playing the old red tape game. I'm beginning to think that before our service men have mastered on how to operate these defense hardwares it would have been a less effective weapon. Perhaps these bureaucrats need the likes of " Tom Clancy " " Red storm rising" or "Humprey Hawksley" " Dragon strike the millennium war" which actually depicts a real time scenario on how a fictional confrontation between China and the Philippines would take place . There's no need to say what the outcome would be but that would be the closest fictional scenario as to the present situation . There has been talks about how these fiction novels actually help design weapons . Perhaps these bureaucrats need to start reading this book and might help clear up their clouded and disillusioned minds. IMHO if we are going to play in this game it's either all in or non at all. Let us not shortchange these servicemen who are about to lay their lives on the line . We need to equip them well . I do believe if these bureaucrats would be at the receiving end they would think otherwise as well . Thank you Max for allowing us to express our thoughts and opinions. God Bless.
ReplyDeleteDon't lose hope...
DeleteNow what happen to uss cowpens harass and bully by chiness ship clearly shows that patrolling alone very close to chine ship not good. Means it should be 2 or more ship patrolling together. The mesage is 1. prioritize weapons and sensors 2. Reduce acceptble tonnage 3. Patrolling by volume .
ReplyDeleteAs i observe china always use minimum of Two ship plus numbers of small ships patrolling around
@ Anonymous I would agree with your statement if we do have the volume and resources but in thie case of the PN they are still sourcing and rebuilding their assets. Instead of surface assets the PN should jump start their submarine plan . It may sound so ambitious and grandeur but humor me for a moment. I would cite the early days of WW2 European theater Germany doesn't have the surface tonnage capability but instead revert to their submarine force to choke England . Now , at the present if we can buy used diesel subs from our allies like South Korea or Japan we can start learning and using this to shadow those intruding ships without the fear of collision. With the PN surface standing nearby as a back up . It would be very difficult for the PN to compete with the PLAN surface capability but if they know that we have a sufficient submarine force they might think otherwise. A retired US admiral made a comment regarding a minimum deterrent force to counter PLAN intrusion and one of them is squadron of 6 diesel submarine force as one of them. Just a thought .
ReplyDeleteNo...you must start in surface warships 1st before jumping yo submarine. Submarine cost 2x the submarine itself, training, weapons at we don't have facilities to handle this kind of naval vessels. we are not competing with PLAN look there Defense Budget at growth of their economy. We only need CREDIBLE defense to to protect are territory/ we must start on the right track not jumping a head to submarine without starting to a light frigates/corvttes...
ReplyDeleteBut imagine 6 diesel submarine will cost around $1.8 to $3.6 billion almost twice are defense budget at maintaining 6 submarine will big allocation needed to address by the government....submarine is good but if we don't have money to mainten them, is wast to money and time.....look what happen to Germany in WW2 wen the British & American created long range anti-submarine aircraft and created more advance anti-submerine rocket what happen. Germany submarine navy captain don't want to leave the naval port coz many of their comrade died or captured by the allied using this weapon....
ReplyDelete@ Anonymous it is true that a fleet of diesel attack submarine could be costly but you can't deny for a fact that even a minimum of 3 submarines which is the numbers mentioned in the PN plan for 2020 is enough to make the PLAN think twice . I do agree that the PN should start with their surface fleet first ,but in order to maximize the ASW capability you need a submarine to do this. Singapore started with a cost effective plan in developing their underwater capability as compared with Malaysia . Between the Philippines and Malaysia both GDP are not far from each other.
DeleteIt is true that underwater capability can be stop but it is also true that they can deny access to a shipping lane and can be costly for the opposing force. Freedom is not cheap ,it is costly in terms of human lives ,sacrifices and monetary.
From what reports say, Vietnam paid $2 billion(US) dollars for 6 Kilo class SSK's. That comes with the Subs, weapons, Training and Maintenance. Vietnam knew the writing on the wall, when China got into the Aircraft carrier club. That's why they got SSK subs. If PN is trying to get an SSK submarines the pricetag would be 4 times that of a Multi Role Frigate or Multi Role Fighter because the Philippines have no experience in Submarines or facilities for them. The Learning curve would be extremely deep for them because they never operated Submarines or Multi Role Frigate. Granted, that SSK submarines can be used for ISR, Special operations support and even deny the enemy access to areas. In the Philippines case, having SSK's can deny China access to the Pacific ocean. Though they have a long way before they ever get an SSK submarine and for now, they need to concentrate on their surface navy.
Delete@Nicky, Vietnam paid, and Vietnam will get. That's what I was saying earlier, if the Philippines is willing to pay, then there will be submarine builders who will be willing to build the subs, train the PN men, and do servicing for maintenance and spare parts.
DeleteProblem is, that the current price tag for a Western European SSK submarine these days, would bankrupt the Philippine economy. For example, Turkey Paid $10 Billion dollars for a German Type 214 SSK. Germans build good, top of the line SSK submarines, but their asking price would bankrupt the Philippines. Though a Type 209 SSK would be reasonable for the Philippines, if they can come up with the cash for the SSK, training, Maintenance and operating budget. The other is the Scorpène-class submarine, and India is buying 6 of them at U$ 3 billion (US dollars) (US$ 500m per boat). The Gotland-class submarine, is one of the most expensive SSK subs in the western European market, which we know the Philippines can never be able to buy on the market.
DeleteAs for the Kilo-class submarine and the Amur-class submarine, They are the most budget friendly submarines that most poor countries can buy. It's budget friendly and good enough to defend their EEZ. The Amur 1650 has been offered to Morocco, India and China as well.
As for Nuclear submarines, the only country that is willing to export them is France and their French Barracuda-class submarine. France paid €7.9 billion for their Barracuda-class submarine.
Nicky, let's take out the nuclear sub option for now. Singapore will be paying $1.36 billion for 2 Type 218SG submarines, and will be the most capable in the SEA region. Japan's Soryu-class submarines cost a little less than $600 million each and is also among the best in the world. For now, it would be logical if the Philippines get cheaper models, like South Korea's iteration of the Type 209 Chang Bogo-class, which Indonesia will be paying $1 billion for 3 units. But with its close relations with Japan, a future Soryu-derived sub can be a possibility.
DeleteActually the Philippines can pay for these, its just the priorities of the government is not on these assets. Of course it would only get what it can pay, and for now I doubt it is willing to spend $500 million for a submarine.
By the way, Turkey paid 2 billion euros for the 6 German Type 214 submarines, which is a good sum and can be within reach of the Philippine Navy. The desired force mix released by the PN sees 3 submarines in the medium term.
DeleteThe Philippines can pay for them, can they justify them or will they end up like Thailand's generals and Admirals.
DeleteNicky, that's another issue. Once a request is made, it is up to the national government to scrutinize and grill the admirals to defend their request. If congress and the national government sees that the request is valid and funding is available, approval can be made. It's not easy, but it can be done.
DeleteThat's why the Philippines will be dead last when it comes to modernizing their Military with their neighbors. By the time they modernize, your neighbors will have moved on to bigger and better military equipment.
Delete@Nicky - bankrupt? how? philippines is the 26th in international reserves with $83 billion(the other source of budget is not included), imagine $83 billion - $2 billion for 6 subs ?? it will looks like a penny for that budget, and anyway we will never going to get russian made. we're still one of US major allies(even we have a i'll equipped military).
DeleteStereguschy Class Heavy Corvettes from Russia is cheaper they can buy 3 for $450 million compare of only 2 Light Frigates from Korean and European bidder. With around 2,400 tons, have helicopter hanger and landing spot. Armed with different anti-surface missiles, KLUB Missiles Systems, Brahmos Missiles ot Uran Anti-Ships Missiles, you choose what anti-air missiles systems you use. Radut Missiles Stsrens or Kashtan Missiles Stsrenms w/ 30mmm CUWS plus 2 AK360 30mm CIWS and 6 torpedoes tube....much better. in production for russian and alegerian navy...no need fot search and development budget cos it is in production already...
ReplyDeleteyou done even know what you are propossing is all about. Our Navy knows what Battleship they need. You better stop blogging here without even think of the ship of class you are saying.. Lem1
Deletenow it's a wake up call to our AFP Generals, Sec. Voltaire Gazmin and President Pnoy the incident happen to USS Cowpens and a group of Chinese Mongoloid Navy recently to fast track the purchase of what they so called the brand new frigates. with my recent research in net, they're no shows of improvement and development for this procurement and instead bidding is not right feasible even those with the pending procurements of 12 FA50 from Korea. Lem1
ReplyDeleteyes I agree with you.... I dont think the Aquion Goverment is serious of what happen recently to USS Cowpens and Senkaku Island in between US and China and China between Japan. How about Philippines? I'll see theis is the two Gregorio Del Pilar Frigates who are willing to risk their Lives from the two pcs of missile coming from Mongoloid Chinese Forces. President Aquino PLEASEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE... FAST TRACK THE MODERNIZATION OF AFP ASAPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP. parting shots to our Marines who station in ill fated BRP Sierra Madre. They must be equip with modern weapons and have a shelter build from cement and still not the old ship so they can also leave better ad-ons with mini wharf so supply ship can deliver goods timely and convenient.
ReplyDeleteWew, biddings pursue for new 2 new frigates. Would this classes of new frigates outperform refurbished maestrale frigate from previous negotiation with Italy? from 11.7 to 18 billion? and ready for 2013. with more than 6 billion of difference and time value. this huge amount of peso could support other projects, and time most probably the navy is already mastered the system of maestrale before any of those shipbuilders laid down one of its frigates.
ReplyDeleteif stealth capabilities is considered, well it is actually not of a need, remember the issue about USS Cowpen? in kind of situation (that most probably would occur in future) stealth capability is not an advantage, maestrale's superb firepower is more needed, unless Italy will strip them of like what United States do in the Hamilton class frigate.
The deal on Maestrale is done, it's a no go. Many reasons, all explained in previous MaxDefense blogs. It may take time to read all but it is worth it. Also go for the commentaries.
DeleteYup, i already read the reason on the month of may's blog, but after i post that comment. hehe
DeleteBtw, sir Max and Maxdef blog, thanks, a nice site to read blogs about Phil' armed forces.
Thanks, Merry Christmas!
DeleteOw shoots, i saw the technical spec from previous blog, wahaha, that is one hell of a spec for Php 18b, for 2 new frigate. Maybe if AFP qoute it for $ 350-400k per ship, it would be fast tracked with complete module. Nice bargaining, but go go, maybe the bidders would bite the bate and take a project with a very low income. . .
ReplyDeleteGinawang divisoria, .hahaha
Sana dinaan nlng ng pn ang bidding sa ngo ni napoles.malamang madami budget dun.un lng ang frigate magging ghost frigate dn.ang navy prsnl ntn magiging ghost fighters.whew the we will have an anime afp.dreamland.this is the budget gven to afp by cngres.lets marked these tongresmen and stamped them next electn!Ramil
ReplyDeletethe 2 GDP Cutter if given an SLEP funding is the cheapest alternative for Patrol Frigate requirment in WPS plus an OPTION for 2 more Hamilton Cutters via FMS..this will be complemented by 6 Pohang PPC Corvette from ROK..seems to be the ideal and cheapest alternative medium term requirment for our credible Patrol Force of PN..then plan for New AAW and MRF Frigates will be program after 2017.Im i right right Mr.Max..
ReplyDelete4 GDP PFrigates plus 6 PPC Pohang class corvette are the most cheapest alternative for Patrol duties in WPS By our PN as a medium term requirments before aquisition of New FFG.
ReplyDeletei cant wait for the next stage of bidding. i hope local shipbuilders here in ph may able to or permitted to build the second ship with blueprints from winning company so we could start industrialization. i believe on filipino superb skill in learning and adopt on different situation.
ReplyDeleteWe might operate Hae Sung anti ship missile if the korean firms won in the bidding.
ReplyDeleteThe frigate technology is good for the navy but consider the PN human resources to undertake maintenance and operation of the future acquisition to include the facility development and the integrated logistic sustainment support. Go Navy! I hope this project will be sustained in the future.
ReplyDeleteHey sir max what happened to your FB????????
ReplyDeleteIf the Korean Cruise Missile is available on the Incheon Frigate, it should be acquired by the PN because flexibility and variety of weapons systems is a mark Sea Power projection by a professional navy. A good crew could modify the cruise missile to strike aircraft carriers as well as ground targets. The main PLAN Navy Base that threatens the Philippines is on Hainan Island. A cruise missile capability would make the PLAN Navy to think twice before they would risk their naval base to come under attack from cruise missiles.
ReplyDeleteThere has been talks about the PN acquiring additional surplus US navy ships in the coming year through the $ 40 mil US FMS . This would probably be another Hamilton WHEC class or the Cyclone class . The OHPS are also on the list but because of its propulsion design and higher cost of operation it has excluded itself from the list . The Hamilton class if chosen could be the backbone of the PN frigate class. Although because of its age and weapon status it is more of an offshore patrol ship. The PN has recently released a report of additional secondary weapon in the form of a mk 38 mode 2 on the PF 16. Additional hardware would be implemented through the SLEP program for both ships. Now , here are the concerns I would like to stress out. Starting with its mission capability. The PN should fast track it's ultimate purpose & design for its G. Del Pilar class instead of its peace meal re modernization process. For the reason of its age and the big gap it requires to fill. The GDP class have rooms for additional upgrades as discuss in the previous blog . Sensors , surveillance and communication and weapon upgrades should be installed immediately before it's release to the PN. A class of within its class should be design from ASW , AAW and ASM from the start through the US govt. Basing on its predecessor before the end of the cold war . Bow mounted sonars plus dipping sonars from air assets with a six tubes torpedo and helicopter mounted for its ASW. Also as a point defense for AAW Rim fire missle instead of the the gun base system . Lastly harpoon missle on the fore as proven in the USS Mellon design. The AFP / PN if ever they would be acquiring 2 Hamilton class need to come out with a particular mission requirement for these ships and a more capable ship. I'm quiet certain because of the current situation in the South China Sea the US would be more than willing to fulfill our requirements .
ReplyDeleteThe last WHEC was refurbished and refitted for around $15mil so assuming the $40 mil will cover for 2 WHECS plus the difference of $10mil for training. With the other two Combat AW109 power coming these year, it'll be in the interest of PN to pursue for another WHEC's. The Cyclone Class patrol ship would be a very acceptable addition with the same class of BRP Mariano Alvarez, I hope they'll get the remaining 13.
DeleteThe Cyclone class crafts aka Mariano Alvarez of the PN would be a welcome addition to its coastal patrol craft assets . Notably for its interdiction and special ops mission capability because of its CCRS capacity and the semi stealth design. This would prove useful in the Southern Islands of Mindanao . In the West Philippine seas it could extend its operations on the Kalayaan group of islands provided the PN could establish a base with a dock on the Pag Asa island. I've read an article on how the main guns of the Cyclone class can be upgraded to a Typhoon automated weapon system and can include spike missiles . If this could be applied to these vessels it could improve its offensive capabilities . The Rafael defense system of Israel are one of the leading defense contractor for maritime weapon system and the PN should take it into consideration what it could offer to update its ships weapon system.
DeleteI could not find anything of those class is retiring soon. The only problem they experiencing at this time is a hull problem for excessive used, probably those in persian golf and again it'll be refurbish anyways. I believe there's an article about Rafael defense offered to upgrade BRP Hammilton's. It's still hard to believe that in able to upgrade you need US Congress approval to do so.
DeleteThere are indeed offers from the US for the Oliver Hazard Perry-class, Hamilton-class and Cyclone-class. No final word yet but the PN may be interested in OHP-class as it is readily available, although cost wise it the most expensive.
DeleteSometimes sir max we are force to bite the bullet..and our territory is at stakes right now. Getting OHP is better than Hamilton and yes we agree its more expensive in terms of operation expenditures for the goverment but, this will be a big LIFT for our Navy and morale of our nation as a whole.
DeleteThe OHP is not necessarily better since these ships were defanged by the US Navy in the past, are more costly to operate, and are in need of modernization and refurbishing as well. It's only advantage on the Hamilton is the ease of mounting warfighting systems as other similar ships in other navies have done so.
DeleteHi Max, I saw the mentioned that Frigate's may replace the 3D radar for a 2D option. Will PN consider the UK Kelvin Hughes high-end Solid-state SharpEye Surveillance Radars?
DeleteHi Sir Max, the Navy is planning to hire a consultant for the Frigate acquisition. I think you should apply for this proposal.
ReplyDeleteThey'll hire a naval consultant firm, so it won't be a 1-man job. This is just standard like what other navies do.
DeleteWould that be a local or overseas firm ? I'm not sure whether there is a known local agency that has the resources and an in depth knowledge in naval warfare technology . I totally agree with this path but why now, they should have thought about it during the onset of this project . Is this the afterthought of the administration or it's just how the " wheels of progress are moving " ? I just hope and pray that with all the struggles and efforts of everyone concern that's its worth the wait and like what the saying goes "all in due time".
DeleteProbably foreign.
DeleteIt look likes this project will drag until March. Possible NOA and contract by the second week of April. Let's cross our fingers we really need these two Frigates. Once NOA and contract has been awarded we can at least assure for the next big ticket project to come.
ReplyDeleteEarliest start of 2nd stage bid is mid March if the 3 other disqualified bidders' appeal are rejected. Possible NOA by May and contract earliest by June.
DeleteThe PN said the frigates will come from proven designs w/c makes me think that the ffx batch 2 will not be offered and possibly the frigate will not feature stealth. The nearest we can get is the ffx batch 1 and navantia's avante 2000 design.
ReplyDeleteWe do not really know for sure what the navy means by "proven designs", it could be the hull, the weapons and sensors systems, or all. My take on this is the navy is talking about the systems, not the hull itself. Based on my understanding, they may discount Korean-made systems and instead opt for proven European or American sensors and weapons systems, as well as electrical and mechanical systems.
DeleteThe frigate you are talking is a multirole frigate that it can address the hypersonic missile threat, ICBM, stealth 3rd generation or 4th generation submarine
ReplyDeletewith ICBM and most sophisticated torpedo, EMP threat, minewarfarfe threats, nuclear, biological and chemical threats, electronic warfare threats and more than 50 knots underwater torpedo, 5th generation stealth fighter craft with precision bomb and missile supersonic later hypersonic, etc. With the budget and if we look on the continuous research and
development on naval warfare the frigate capability that we had after 4 years is not that for deterrence posture not to.mentionrail gun and laser gun threats and also, the strategic planning that our leader is putting in. I hope our leaders will plan in accordance for the good of our country not on the business side.
days are passing and still no news about this project any update?
ReplyDeleteThe PN will be having workshops this February, allocating around 4-5 days per bidder to discuss the tech details and other information on their offer. The 2nd stage bid may be started by March.
DeleteSir Max is the AFP particualry Navy and Airforce has a program on recruiting new rookies that is technicaly adept to manned this high tech assets that we plan to acquire excuse me but with due respect to current personnel in service? I think the AFP should sync and address this problems. Opinion lang po...
DeleteOld timers are actually familar or being familiarized with the systems while new incoming recruits are chosen with their skills (more emphasis on tech people nowadays) to build up a steady batch of people who can understand the new technology being acquired by the AFP. Continuous training and cross training with other armed forces (particularly US, Australia, Korea, UK, India, Malaysia, and even China) to acquire and improve its capabilities.
DeleteThe PN should consider the quality and versatility of the platforms...Sensors and systems can be upgraded later...
ReplyDeleteits already feb 06 2014 en no updates. whats going on?
ReplyDeleteThere were several news updates in the past few days. The PN and its consultants will undertake workshops with each of the eligible bidders, they will be given 5 weekdays each to explain, discuss, and adjust their bids. This will start this month, probably next week. 4 eligible bidders means 4 weeks. If the DND BAC finds the other 3 bidders eligible (Garden Reach, STX France and ThyssenKrupp), then you add 3 more weeks for them. There will be a few weeks allowance for them afterwards, and the bidding will start by either March or April, and hopefully provide notice of award to the winning bidder by end of May.
DeleteIT TAKES TOOOO LONG. AFTER THIS LONG DELAYED PROJECT IS THERE A PLAN AFTER THE NOA FOR ANOTHER BIG TICKET FOR THE NAVY PERHAPS2 MORE?
DeleteYes sir max it was on the FB of phil navy that 4 to 5 days for each bidders. we hope they will come up with something before May or at least by June. But how about the consultant when will be this enageges? this is 25M cost for the navy.
ReplyDeleteThe $40 Million Dollars proposed by Secretary of State John Kerry to help modernize the PN should be used to up upgrade the BRP Gregorio Del Pilar(PF-15) and the BRP Ramon Alcaraz(PF-16) with HARPOON ANTI-SHIP MISSILES so they can defend themselves when on patrol in the West Philippine Sea. This is present necessary need to make them credible warships in the 2014 naval situation.
ReplyDeleteModern warfare is a matter of "COMBINED ARMS" to be effective. A cooperation of submarines, surface vessels, and naval attack aircraft is necessary for an effective naval task force to sink enemy ships. The PN needs two submarines, six frigates, and eight naval attack aircraft now in order to control the West Philippine Sea. The Korean companies have submarines designs and frigates designs that can do the job at prices the Philippines can afford. At least one half of these should be built in Philippine Shipbuilding Yards,(one submarine and three frigates)as part of a deal to improve the Philippine defense posture as a maritime seagoing nation. The naval attack aircraft can be acquired through the United States Excess Military Equipment program. The best candidate is refurbished Grumman A-6 Naval Attack Aircraft that can carry 12000 pounds of bombs and Harpoon Anti-Ship Missiles. These are in storage now in the Arizona desert near Davis- Monthan Air Force Base. A coordinated PN submarine, frigate, and naval aircraft attack force would be effective.
ReplyDeleteThese modernization programs of the AFP will screech to a halt once the Bi__ys grab power in 2016. By that time, Malacanang would have struck a deal with Beijing surrendering our sovereignty over the West Philippine Sea, and J. Bi__y would have already apologized and given millions to Hong-Kong. That would be a very sad time for our country and the AFP would be back in the stone ages.
ReplyDeleteThen as a voter and concerned citizen, you know what to do.
DeleteKill those bastards. Or use them as bullets for the cannons.
Deletesir max any updates on the acquisition new frigates and current GDP weapons sensors and missile upgrade?
ReplyDeleteWe are on the right path strengthening our navy we have twice the coastline compared to usa, we are supplying a quarter of a million seafarers around the globe, filipinos are very skill full especially in mastering his trade, please dnd, pinoy, pn ,dont fail us to protect our very own territory it is our filipino rights.thank u max..this upgrade is challenging but nothing is impossible.
ReplyDeleteany update about this program sir?? i mean the light frigate program??
ReplyDeleteIts almost april..cant find any update on the frigs program
ReplyDeletesir Max, do you have any info (even unconfirmed ones) whether the appeals of the other bidders initially disqualified had been positively considered and their bids accepted?
ReplyDeleteNew reports that Garden Reach and STX France were considered by the DND BAC. ThyssenKrupp still did not qualify.
DeleteDamen Schelde The builder of De Zeven Provicien Class Air Defense and Command Frigate closer to a Destroyer.
ReplyDeleteHope they offer the same design to PN...!
Damen Schelde did not submit any offer to the PN. They also did not join the tender for the 2 new frigates.
DeleteAre we already at the end of the road? Decision should be anytime now.
ReplyDeleteIt may take a little longer since the entry of Garden Reach and STX France means that the navy will provide enough time for them to explain their offer.
DeleteGarden Reach and STx=fRANCE just got readmitted to the bidding, coincidentally (or not), one of the french Floreal class patrol frigate paid a visit, hosted PN officials and is to go on a joint exercise with the PN....so maybe an upgraded Floreal version is STX-France's bid.....the morrocan mohammed V frigates are built by stx-france based on the floreal.
ReplyDeleteAng tagal grabe. Nakakabaliw maghintay. I'm not really feeling an upgraded Floreal class frig. Remember that it's built using commercial standards, thus, contradicting the PN's requirement for "a proven design."
ReplyDeleteNo word yet on what STX France offered. But a modification and modernized version of the Floreal-class is not farfetched.
DeletePresident Aquino Please buy 20 units of frigates
ReplyDeletehi Max, any idea about the cost of Incheon class batch 2 ???
ReplyDeletePlays around $300 million. But this is because the weapons and sensors fit are extensive compared to what the PN requires.
Deleteany update about this? its june 3
ReplyDeleteLatest info from Usec Manalo most probably by July (next) month they will announce the winner of the two brand new frigates. Let's just cross our fingers........
ReplyDeleteWhat's up? Maybe August?
ReplyDeleteUpdate: DND in the Market for 2 RHIBs for PN
ReplyDeletehttp://defense-studies.blogspot.com/search/label/PHILIPPINES
The Department of National Defense (DND) said on Tuesday that it is allocating P63,159,000 to acquire two rigid hull inflatable boats (RHIBs) for the Philippine Navy.
The money will be sourced from the Armed Forces of the Philippines (AFP) Modernization Funds and the contract will include an integrated logistic support for the craft, DND said.
The RHIBs will be used by the PN for "maritime interdiction and GOPLAT takedown missions."
This is just another RHIB acquisition. Expect more of this every year.
Deletefrom rhk111's blog (he was at ADAS2014 and was able to ask companies involved in the frigate bidding of their candidate)
ReplyDeleteNavantia - offering the Avante 2200 combatant - provisions for VLS, aaw to be supplemented by unnamed sam system to meet min. requirements, removal of millenium 35mm gun to be replaced by stabilised 30mm gun, hull mounted sonar only, 3D radar c/o Smart-s mk2
HHI - offering HDF-3000 - RAM launcher and phalanx may be retained, korean systems and weapons to be integrated (like radar, torps, ashm, even the RAM is manufactured under license in SK) for significant cost reductions.
No avail data for DSME, Navantia could have had this if there was a mk41 vls avail.This could be for the SK's maybe. We'll see by the end of the month.
http://www.rhk111smilitaryandarmspage.com/new-frigate-bidding-candidate-modified-avante-2200-combatant-class/#more-3448
http://www.rhk111smilitaryandarmspage.com/new-frigate-bidding-candidate-modified-hdf-3000-class/
MaxDefense already discussed the designs being offered by Navantia, Hyundai,,and all other shortlisted shipbuilders last year. I have some reliability issues on the analysis made on rhk's blog (by the way he was also a MaxDefense reader), but if he is correct, it strengthens our previous analysis and information from sources. I have some reservations on the answers he got from the Hyundai salesman, as he just described the Incheon-class as it is with the Korean Navy. The Philippine requirement might see several downgrades due to budget issues. Also the Incheon does not use the Thales Smart-S radar, but is using a LIG Nex1 model.
Delete"reliability issues" - nice coining, Max. I would have used "maturity issues" if i am to describe rhk. I've been a reservist officer. Been a fanatic military boy with military uncles (PMA and West Point). So, i understand rhk a little bit. When I got out of my comfort zone, taken a wider perspective and grow older (wiser), I found all those military friends I have got only one perspective of a much wider spectrum. Most thinks more, faster, stronger and higher are the only criteria to everything. Only a few would more analytical outside the box. Anyway, I chose my battles that is won already. I know you have, Max.
DeleteI got a sting from people who haven't gone outside of the Philippines from my pragmatic view of manufactured products done in some countries as compared to the original.
Many examples of this:
Nokia cellphones done in Finland versus anywhere else.
Completely built cars from Japan as compared to the same cars of assembled elsewhere.
Batteries from Japan compared to similar brand built somewhere else.
Shirt (textiles), food, etc...
My point, same parts, same process, same "stringent" quality controls yet different durability and reliability.
By the way, i work in the manufacturing, retail and supply chain industry in 4 continents. But i got "stinged" by people who knew too little and thinks its enough.
- buboy
That was a rant. lol.
Deletesorry Max.
As what MaxDefense sources say, the PN wanted a larger ship design to be able to accomodate several systems that will be procured later on. So I expect a 3000-ton ship desigb to win this project.
ReplyDeleteSIR MAX ANY NEWS ABOUT THE FRIGS? ITS AUGUST 4 ALREADY
ReplyDeleteany updates about this??,, already August"
ReplyDeleteSo base on the update this will take few more months?
ReplyDeleteWeapon system
ReplyDeleteMain Naval gun
secondary naval gun
Sam
ssm
torpedo
what about the sensors?
Radar surface air seach
sonar
Radar fire control
Read back on the previous post about this sir. I think Sir Max posted something about the ABC's of the new frigates.
DeleteFurther confirmation of the HDF-3000 offer from a Jane's report. Hyundai expects a winner by September 2014.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.militaryaerospace.com/news/2014/08/02/adas-2014-hhi-pitches-hdf-3000-design-for-philippine-frigate-programme.html
Yes I am a believe also that HDF-3000 offer has a better shot due to its large spaces for weapons reconfiguration and I may say this is a right choice for the PN if not the best, Better yet with combine system from from Korean sensors to weapon system from ELBIT.
ReplyDeleteTHIS WAS A VERY GOOD DECISION MADE BY THE PN TOP BRASS AND DND. I EXPECT STIFF COMPETITION FROM WEAPON SYSTEM MAKER FROM COUNTRIES LIKE THE UNITED STATES, ISRAEL AND ITALY (JUST TO MENTION A FEW OF THEM). WHEN THE PN DECIDE TO UPGRADE GORIO AND RAMON IT WILL COME EASY FOR THEM.
ReplyDeleteWeapons system will have to be compatible with the ship. It would be better if the PN has already chosen what they want, amd go for negotiated bid, similar to what they did with the FA-50.
DeleteI think this PN Frigate Program made a lot of bruhahaha. Now that they have split the budget for 2 programs. I think it would be wiser to allot another 5B for weapon systems and electronics. P18B is still a small budget for 2 new Frigate that has been scaled back to square 1. It is very time consuming and full of heartache from common people that is expecting a new ship by 2016. Being tailored to fit the PN's requirements would be it be wiser enough to revisit the Quick Hull purchase of Frigate rather than wait till 2018 if we are lucky enough with no backlogs. Even the Western Government the budget hearing is almost over for FY2015. No sign of Missile System transfer and notification. And its nga nga na naman.......
ReplyDeleteThe PN can proceed to award the standard frigate hull and systems to the shipbuilder without affecting the schedule. The 2nd stage bid has not yet started, and the PN has the option to chnage the specifications and budget, which includes removing the weapons portion from the original requirement and reducing the ABC accordingly. So the only delays that I see is on the submission by the bidders to accomodate the adjustments.
DeleteI even believe that the changes made are good news, since the PN is startong to learn the process. It takes time for an organization to know how the procedures are made, and that applies to the PN which is a first time buyer of new major naval assets. It is also possible to hasten to acquisition of weapons systems because they can now opt to it by negotiated acquisition, which reduces time and allows the PN to acquire what they really wanted. They can also access more budget if needed, and allow for joint acquisitions with other requirements like the upgrades for the Gregorio del Pilar-class frigates, the ASW helicopters (torpedo), and the planned acquisition of land based missile systems by the Army.
I also expect that the ASW helicopter may also have the same issue, although it may not affect the project's schedule that much.
I agree let's us revisit the cost and if needed the AFP should ask congress additional funds. No compromise with the weapons and systems of both frigates.
ReplyDeleteBut are the Americans equipment is a practical for the navy?
ReplyDeleteBilisan na sana, kasi pag natapos ang term ni Pnoy. baka mahinto o tumagal na naman yung process. And also may i add kung kulang tyo sa air asset sana palakasin na lang ang defensive posture natin. Like if we dont have many planes. focus on anti aircraft missiles like SPYDER and AAA like the SKYSHIELD
ReplyDeleteAny thoughts on Capt. Alfred Kenneth Tingabngab III (Ret.) statement regarding the frigate acquisition program which stated, "Reign your expectations gentlemen... Am anticipating a failed 2 stage bidding similar to what happened to the Coast Watch System Project. A waste of time, effort, expenses on the part of participating suppliers an embarrassment on requirement planning and procurement for this administration in general and DND officials in particular. We wasted so much time and opportunity already. Face Palm! Nga NGa!"
ReplyDeleteAlthough he has significant information on naval projects, being an officer previously involved in them, I think his statements are too negative at this early stage. The separation of fund, according to my sources and from my own analysis, does not affect the project because the original requirement also included the ammunition. Bidders will have to include them originally, which means it automatically takes up part of the budget from the very beginning. The only mistake the PN made is that weapons systems usually are purchased by the end user, not by the shipbuilder, because it entails scrutiny by the supplier's government first. It also requires congressional or parliament approval especially when acquired from countries like America or those from Europe, as this is their policy.
Deletebetter hope that the ship/crew is well equipped well trained for any eventuallity. this could be very well a sinking metal. enemy will always find way,specially the terrorists. paka palubugin lng yan ng suicide diver.
ReplyDeletewhat needs to be prioritize is the acquisition of at least 2 mid size subs. buying new frigrates are good but one sub can sink these new frigrates easy. if the PN buy new frigrates then they should also include submarines as part of the modernization because we all know how effective these subs are when it comes to sea battles and China has dozens of subs, even Vietnam has a few. Philippines is lagging behind and slow to catch up that even Bangladesh Navy is more modern than the PN..
ReplyDeleteWe should know first the reason why the PN is buying new frigates.
Delete1. It doesn't have any. This enables the PN to move up its skills to a significant level and catch up with the current standards.
2. The PN's goal is to have a very capable maritime surveillance system using all possible assets - ships (including the frigates), coast watch stations, MPA, etc. Maritime domain awareness is the major thrust of the PN.
3. Subs are part of the PN's plans for acquisition, which was highlighted by its previously announced Desired Force Mix whitepaper.
masyadong pabor sa Sokor yung unang plan. dahil hindi na nila kailangan bumili sa ibang bansa ng weapons..
ReplyDeleteashm - ssm700k
torpedo - blue shark
sam - chiron or ram
76mm gun
40mm gun
baka mismong supplier ang nag request nito dahil di naman gumagawa ng ashm ang Spain.
Actually, yes it did favored them a lot. Because although the Korean government may need approval to let the PH acquire these weapons, it can easily approve it because it favors them as well. Korea is actively looking for foreign buyers of their system which they can add to their portfolio.
DeleteBut the changes is also a good news for the PN because it allows them to acquire what they really want and not to hostaged to what the shipbuilder offered. So if the really wanted Harpoons instead of SSM-700K Hae Sung, the the PN can choose to do so (of course with American government approval).
DeleteBut im asking you Sir Max is 2.5B for weapon system and electronics and 15.5B for Ship is enough for this project that is being tailored to fit PN's need. would it be nice to acquire 3 Maestrale rather than expect a new one around 2018-2020???
DeleteThe best scenario is to acquire EDA frigates as a short term requirement, while building new ships for the medium term requirement. As I have been informed by those with access to the deal before, the Maestrales were expensively offered to the PN, and the Italians have so many pre-conditions included in the deal that will eventually delay the ship from being delivered as well.
DeleteThe best the PN can do is continue with the frigate, and start other projects included in the Desired Force Mix as early as it can. For short term, the PN must do its best to get the other Pohang-class corvettes, and probably more WHECs.
According also to my source sir why the Maestrale has been junk because mainly for the DND incompetent in handling the negotiation and lack of background for a large Frigate program. Im not referring to the persons name that surface here but other persona who is knowledgeable of the program also concede that Maestrale was still the best option in terms of payment, firepower,electronics,sensor and growth.
DeletePN's concern was the short training period but Italians wants PN/DND to pay for the long term training support in which and should have been fairly negotiated properly if they are serious into business.
Spare parts and electronics upgrading, We all know that Maestrale's electronics, sensor and weapon system has a small shelf life remaining and due for replacement with better one when PN heard of this they almost turn their heads back to look for other possible Frigate. Why? Should have been also properly discussed closed door rather than divulge to media everything. The congressional inquiry should have been a close door session way back 2 years ago. DND stop the negotiation preemptively while the Italian Ministry was left hanging out there.
But wait, Isnt it the same agony and faith still haunting the PN and DND when it comes to weapon, electronics, and sensor suite for the current frigate?
They should have enough courage to face the truth that procurement and transfer is not cheap also while obtaining a newer hull with full complements that is being tailored to PN's need is more time consuming and very extravagant program.
Lately I think it is better this way.as long as no vertical launch system (vls) and jus all weapon will externally attach like SAM TORPEDO ROLLING AIRFRAME MISSILE EVEN THIS PHALANX OR MILLENNIUM GUN AND ANTI SHIP ALL INSTALL OUTSIDE OF THE SHIP EVERY THING IS OK.
ReplyDeletein short just acquire an OPV to make story short with lesser butts to kick and heads to blame.
DeleteAll of this shortcomings will be a learning curved for the DND. We have to remember that AFP has been left out in weapons and hardware development. When this put together next acquisition is easier if not just walk of the park.
DeleteI understand many commentaries looked on the budget as small compared the acquisition of our neighbors. In defense spending big or small budget is out of the context.. it is on our planners on how to make out of it. Example: F-35 of the U.S. way above of the original budget and this plane is becoming obsolete due to the coming of drones..
We may wonder why the Philippines did get much of at least defensive from the U.S. being a NON-NATO major ally. The reason is our government lobbying capability, most of U.S. allies will hire lobby group in Washington.. then target congressmen and senators who holds in decision making in budget and approving FMS. This is how Washington works and this is what Israel does... thereby getting millions if not billions of military aid.
serge
The division of the project into two means that the DND and AFP are learning more on bidding and acquisition procedures. But it also means that the DND and AFP were complacent to not know the effects as early as last year. They could have known the issues on offsensive weapons procurement the easy way if they put their effort into knowing it, there's always JUSMAG for them to ask for advice.
DeleteWe do have a lobbying group, the US-Philippines Society. And It is run by prominent Filipinos, Fil-Ams and key Americans. "Philippines, is co-chaired by Ambassador John D. Negroponte (US) and Mr. Manuel V. Pangilinan (PH). Honorary Chairs are Mr. Washington Z. Sycip and Mr. Maurice “Hank” Greenberg. The current Philippine Ambassador to the US, Jose L. Cuisia, Jr., serves as an ex-officio board member." Loida Lewis, the Fil-Am billionaire is part of the group. These are not just your run-of-the-mill group but carefully picked to do its job.
Deletesir max can ppp (public private partnership) be used to have all our defense needs? we can produce our own defence hardware at the same time we are able to partner with big defense company, create jobs and income that would improve philippine economy and defense capabilty.
ReplyDeleteNo, because there is nothing for companies to earn but more to lose financially.
DeleteDoes this mean were back to square1? So frustrating that after months of following this program and all the expectations that were having a new warship by 2016
ReplyDeleteNo. The DND and bidders just have to adjust their specs and bids. The 2nd stage bid has not yet started anyway so they still have the time. Internally the allocation for weapons systems and ammunition are part of the original requirement, so the DND will just take it out and place it in another separate project. No need to redo reverything.
DeleteAlso, don't expect the frigate to be out by 2016. The PN already expects a 2017 delivery as very optimistic.
DeleteOnly one new frigate? How many new corvettes we expect by 2017, sir Max? How about the old corvette to be donated to us by South Korea, what month this year we expect to receive it?
ReplyDeleteI dont see any problem in this separate bidding of weapon. Radars and sensors and combat managementsystem software are open achitecture means it can easily interface with what ever weapon dnd chooses.
ReplyDeleteWith the separation of weapons acquisition, the Maestrale frigates are getting more and more attractive - you get 3 MRO'd operational Maestrales for P18 billion with assured weapons suite. Or you get 2 ships without weapons for P15.5 billion.
ReplyDeleteThe DND/AFP should stop this nonsense now and just get the 3 Maestrales immediately, say in not more than a year. And have a strong naval capabilities very much faster.
We can't be buyers of used ships forever. This is already a good start for the PN to acquire new ships that will last a generation. People always forget that this is a brand new ship, not a 30 year old upgraded ship like the Maestrale.
DeleteAnd as I said before, the separation of the budget for weapons is nothing but a formalization of the separation. The original program actually has the weapons separated internally. This move will even make it easier for the shipbuilders to focus their work on the ship and integration as it is the government's responsibility to acquire offensive weapons and be subjected to approval from the supplier's government.
Acquiring Maestrales or any other used warships can also be made, but not at the expense of the new ships. MaxDefense has always promoted the acquisition of used warships to fill in the PN's short to medium term goals, but not as a final solution to the PN's problem of lack of modern warships.
DeleteI agree, the development of our Navy cannot be always dependent on the used weaponry. DND must procure brand new hardware and later on make joint development to defense maker just like what Indonesia, Malaysia and Singapore. This three neighbors are at the forefront now.
Deleteserge
Standing up a credible naval defense in the shortest time now should be the topmost priority of the DND/AFP. And buying existing naval ships is the fastest path. It's like buying from ukay-ukay or a dressmaker. Ukay-ukay is faster, simpler and very much cheaper. With the P18 billion you can get 3 Maestrales instead of 2 smaller frigates giving the adversary a harder time messing with our EEZ. Later on we will have more time and expertise to define and buy custom made warships like with a dressmaker.
ReplyDeleteThe DND/AFP should accept their shortcoming, and standup a credible naval defense now. Or have they surrendered our sovereignty and outsourced our naval defense to the US.
How sure would it be that the Italians would also be selling us the even-past-generation Aspide and Otomat Teseo?
DeletePN has to balance availability-base and capability-base procurement.
The 1st-stage technical presentation gave DND insights -- including possible difficulties of the suppliers to obtain permission to sell weapons from foreign gov't. Thus, DND had no choice but to decouple the weapons and seaframe platform. There's also good possibility that DND has now established a number of preferred weapon systems (and supplier), and may be doing this on G2G/negotiated procurement.
Ok weapon is end user responsability
ReplyDeleteHow about the radar, sensor and the combat management system is this responsability of the ship builder?
Who will install the weapon later on the end user or the ship builder ?